Tony Martignetti, Founder of Inspired Purpose Partners, The Power of Extreme Curiosity in Leading Change

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Tony Martignetti: Let's do it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon, Lucas.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And I'm Tracy Lovejoy. We're the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break, shit burnout where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today I'm super excited to have Tony Martinetti with us. Hi, Tony!

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Tony Martignetti: Hello! How are you doing.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thrilled to have you here. All right, let me introduce you for our listeners. Tony is a leadership advisor, a coach, a facilitator, a bestselling author, a podcast host, and a speaker. He brings over 30 years of business and leadership, experience and extreme curiosity to elevate leaders and equip them with the tools to navigate through change and unlock their true potential. Tony also hosts the virtual campfire, podcast

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: which he was gracious enough to have us on as guests. He's the author of climbing the Right mountain, navigating the journey to an inspired life and campfire lessons for leaders. How uncovering our past can propel us forward. He's been featured in Harvard Business Review Fast Company, Forbes, and so much more. We're thrilled to have you here. All right, so let's jump in. That's sort of your cliff notes, Bio, but we would love to hear from you

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: about your catalytic journey, maybe a few career highlights that you're proud of that help us! See your catalytic nature.

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Tony Martignetti: Wonderful. And 1st of all, I just love that. You know the the extreme. You know curiosity. I think that's something that's so important. You have to be extremely curious these days, to to really unlock that next level, and to be to catalyze, change. Right? So I think to me it's been a part of who I am all the way through. So

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Tony Martignetti: so let me tell you about my catalytic journey, if you will. As a question is, my catalytic journey has been defined by, you know, a deep commitment to innovation and passion for integrating, you know, parts of art, science, and nature into everything I do, and I didn't really quite know that until I started on my journey of discovering myself.

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Tony Martignetti: I've been an artist since I was a child, which was an interesting thing that I didn't realize would be helpful as I moved along in my journey.

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Tony Martignetti: And one of my career highlights that I'm most proud of along this journey was when I took the leap to start my own company. I had been in the biotech industry for so long, and

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Tony Martignetti: spent some time in high tech as a finance and strategy professional, and then realized that there was something missing, and I took this big leap to to go off on my own, and create the path of my own creation, which

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Tony Martignetti: took a lot of courage

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Tony Martignetti: and curiosity to make that leap.

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Tony Martignetti: and it opened me up to so many things that I never thought was possible. So this experience taught me the importance of blending strategy, strategic thinking, and the human centered approach

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Tony Martignetti: to drive meaningful change, not just in myself.

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Tony Martignetti: but also in other people.

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Tony Martignetti: So my journey has been all about that, you know, challenging the status quo and thinking.

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Tony Martignetti: how do I push boundaries for myself and others.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing. And I mean just double clicking on that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: How has extreme curiosity either in your corporate roles, or as you've been launching your own ventures. How has that helped.

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Tony Martignetti: Well, I mean oftentimes, and this is something I see a lot in people who I talk to

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Tony Martignetti: is we? We sometimes settle for what we hear first, st

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Tony Martignetti: the 1st thing that people say, and I know I've been a victim of that, too, you know. Oftentimes people say you know, you ask a question of you know, hey? How do I do that job? Or what does it mean to be able to step into that role? And people say, well, you know you need an Ivy League degree for that, or you need to be able to have this experience to do that. And

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Tony Martignetti: you know you sometimes put your head between your you know you put it down low when you say Oh, well, I guess I don't have that, and I can't do it. And so then you move on, and you go back to your desk and say

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Tony Martignetti: I will settle for what I have.

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Tony Martignetti: but that is not what we do. That is not how we catalysts do this, we think, well, how else could I get that? What else is possible? What if we do this. And so that questioning and continuing to push on and say, You know, maybe that's a limiting belief that person has that they're pushing on me, which I don't want to accept.

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Tony Martignetti: So those questions start to push the boundaries of what we think is possible.

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Tony Martignetti: So that's where questions have become important to me.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I love that it's so interesting because catalysts often end up in roles or assignments, or whatever like, where they feel like the imposter, too, like the imposter syndrome.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And so I'm wondering how your extreme curiosity could help someone who's feeling like that like I really want to take that role. But I'm not sure that I have the right skill set, or I've been given this big project. Am I really worthy.

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Tony Martignetti: -

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Tony Martignetti: well, and I'll start with this idea of the imposter, because I think there's something about that which I've really gotten to learn a lot about this idea that

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Tony Martignetti: if you're starting to ask yourself, am I worthy? You know I don't belong here, or that kind of stuff? Then it's really a start. The starting point of you are

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Tony Martignetti: on the journey to discovering your true self. You know there's, you know, the only people who ask themselves, am I worthy? Are the people who are worthy of that thing?

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Tony Martignetti: It's actually a feature, not a bug of the best people, the most successful people in the world and so lean into, why am I asking this question?

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Tony Martignetti: And what is what is starting to bubble up inside of me? That is asking. That is requiring me to ask that question, so lean into it, ask more questions, start to see where the edge is on that question.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I love. I love that permission and sense of grace for ourselves. Yeah.

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Tony Martignetti: That's.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Beautiful. So you've described some attributes. But I'm curious how you personally relate to the concept of catalyst.

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Tony Martignetti: Yes, now I did spend some time, you know, studying chemistry in school, and so but I wasn't good at it. I was a pre-med major who who switched into business because I'm like, I can't do this

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Tony Martignetti: so anyways, that's probably a little too much information.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Not at all. We want to get to know you, Tony, all the ways.

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Tony Martignetti: But to me I mean a catalyst. The concept resonates deeply with me, because it's all about seeing possibilities where others might see limitations. And we've talked a lot about that already, and you know, having the courage to take action even in the face of uncertainty, which I think is important

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Tony Martignetti: as a catalyst. I'm driven by the constant curiosity and the desire to create meaningful impact. I talk about that as like the big part of my work is helping outliers create an impact without burning out. So I think, as a catalyst, how do we ensure that we create impact without burnout? And I know that resonates with both of you, because it's really it's right inside of the work that you're doing. It's in the book.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: How do you do that? How do you help the outliers create massive impact without burning out.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, I mean, the starting point is really getting to see what is truly at the core of who they are. What do they value. Why do they do the things they do? And understanding what is it? What's at stake?

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Tony Martignetti: For them? Not doing, not being able to do their work?

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's such a great reframe, because people often say that we look like we're comfortable with risk and ambiguity. But that last piece is often our framing. I just got off a call with an executive. And I was like, this is how you position it. It's like, here's the business challenges. I have a proposal, but the risk is not trying this. It's totally ambiguous, and I don't know what it might be. We have to try something right?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So I'm curious like how along your way, being a catalyst has supported you as an executive and a change leader.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, it's a great question. And I think for me, I think the biggest part of it has been.

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Tony Martignetti: It's driven my my drive to innovate or to do has been.

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Tony Martignetti: It's been hard to really balance that flow of like. How do I keep on moving and pushing the envelope, but also make sure that I don't, you know, push too hard on the fray of what people are comfortable with. And so it's been great to be a catalyst, but also understanding that it's driven by the right purpose, that there's a purpose behind it that is truly mine.

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Tony Martignetti: And I think that has been something that's a struggle. But also it's excited me is to make sure that I'm aligned on the right path of what I most want

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Tony Martignetti: to create in the world. So I hope that makes sense. I can clarify.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Do you think that's harder for catalyst to figure out.

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Tony Martignetti: Totally. I think so, because, you know, sometimes we just love change for change sake. It's just we get excited about disrupting and putting things out in the world and and action. But we need to slow down. Slowing down is like is where the wonder Twin Powers unite is when you slow down. And you see, okay, maybe I'm moving too fast, and I'm not able to see clearly where my purpose is

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Tony Martignetti: is put to its best use.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It's so interesting, and I have never honestly thought about that question. I'm not asking you a question that I at all know the answer to one thing that Shannon and I have seen a lot in our time is that when we're doing work that we know is aligned to our purpose sometimes that can be to our detriment, because we will forsake our own health, our own relationships

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): to keep going toward it. And you add a beautiful layer, too, that like, maybe it's not enough to just know your purpose. But are you really paying attention to? Are my values all the way up and down also being met. Am I giving too much at this moment?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Have I set boundaries, and do I know what that means? And so really interesting layers to to add in, I appreciate that.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah. And maybe I could take it one step further, which is something that I think is an important part of making sure you don't burn out, and you create that right level of leverage which is to engage others

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Tony Martignetti: in what you're doing, so that they can be feel like they're part of this journey you're on.

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Tony Martignetti: you know, if you're the leader of a team, and you're saying like, I have an idea that I think is going to be game changing or could move the needle.

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Tony Martignetti: But you need to make sure that you have built relationships, and you've got people

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Tony Martignetti: are part of the equation. The power of people is what creates that sense of. I'm not just burning out because I'm doing it all myself.

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Tony Martignetti: And I'm not just, you know, the martyr who's sitting there trying to do, do, do, and saying like, Oh, I got this.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): No.

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Tony Martignetti: Instead, it's like, Oh, I've got a team of people who get it. And they're excited about the mission, and they're feeling this energy about what we're doing, and they're going to question me

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Tony Martignetti: on, you know. Hey, this isn't making sense. Now let's push back a little bit.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I'm gonna ask a different question. But it may come back to this very point that you're you're you're talking about, which is, I'd love to understand for you as a catalyst executive. What if some of the biggest challenges that you've experienced, and how you know how you've overcome them? You know what your learnings have been, and I I am curious if this same theme will pop back up.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah.

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Tony Martignetti: So your question is, what is the the biggest.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Challenges you face as a catalyst executive, and how you overcome them.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, I guess the biggest one is when you have a vision of what you see. But you let other people.

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Tony Martignetti: people's authority and their their influence.

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Tony Martignetti: cloud that vision.

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Tony Martignetti: And and then ultimately leading to, you know.

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Tony Martignetti: you know, a conflict. So I mean, I was. I was leading the charge for this implementation of a really powerful platform in an organization I was working at. And it was gonna really change the way we strategic plan in the organization and

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Tony Martignetti: really interesting stuff.

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Tony Martignetti: I knew exactly what we needed, and it was sophisticated enough, but not too complicated, you know, and you wanted to make sure that it could be could actually run

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Tony Martignetti: the the system. But then these executives came in that were sponsors, and

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Tony Martignetti: they're like, well, we wanted to be able to do this, and we wanted to be able to do that, and we wanted to be able to do that. And and before you know, it, it becomes this monster, and I didn't have the forethought to push back.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And.

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Tony Martignetti: Say, No, no.

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Tony Martignetti: we have to stay the course on what we've designed here. This is the vision.

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Tony Martignetti: And when we implement it like this. It's going to do exactly what we needed to do.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): -

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Tony Martignetti: And.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): That's

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): sorry. Go ahead, Tony. I.

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Tony Martignetti: And that's that's what I ran into is sometimes you have to stick to your guns and say, even though you have more authority, I I know what's gonna work, and I know what's not gonna work.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love that, and I'd love to kind of let folks in the audience into something that you and I know right? You're a member of our catalyst Leadership trust. And you know that we recently did some research with the catalyst leadership trust members. And we built this model of what we see as catalyst executives what they're doing to be as successful at leading organizational change as they are. And so there's an interesting tension in what you're pointing to that. I'd love us to unpack because one of the key things that we've noticed

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): are so unique with catalyst executives is the deep reading of the system

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): and the bringing lots of people in and their inputs in being able to be iterative and flexible for that environment and that timing. And so how do you gauge? Because you're absolutely right? There is a point at which you also have to hold firm.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): How do you live between those 2 needs.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, it's a great question, because you don't want to. You know, you're not running a democracy to an extent. It's like a. It's a flexible democracy that you want to be able to make sure people feel that sense of

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Tony Martignetti: of having input, but also understanding. You know what are the things that are non-negotiable, that you know that. But at the end of the day these are the things that need to happen. And I think one of the things that's really powerful that helps to guide this is to have set principles.

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Tony Martignetti: and that when you start a program or you start something out, you lay out. These are the principles we're going to live by.

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Tony Martignetti: and they kind of set the tone. And they set the way that we, as a team or as an organization, or whatever it is that you're trying to organize, will allow others to know. Okay, these are the things we're not going to go against. So they ensure that everyone else, when there's pushback or when there's a change in scope, or there's something that happens.

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Tony Martignetti: These are the guiding lights. If you will.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love that because I'm assuming, then there's probably an opportunity for discussion on when we might want to iterate the principles. But if you have these these voices coming in saying, change this and that, and there's a violation of the principles.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Then it gives you a way to have a conversation to say, Hey.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): we can talk about that, however, before we we become that flexible.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Here's something that we said.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, I love that.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah. And and you know, there's a couple of companies that come to mind, and some of them are admired, some not so much, but like that that use principles as ways to keep people on on task. And I think the key thing is you've got to make sure that you live by them, and, like you said, you have a protocol, for when do we need to violate them, if need be?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, I'm a big fan of Linda Hill's work, who was kind of one of the early pioneers, and looking at how how our company is truly good at driving innovation with teams, and this is such a big element of what what she talks about. But I hadn't seen in her work, and maybe I'm forgetting about what do we do when there's a moment that they might, we might might need to to either violate them. But more change them right.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, it violates a strong word, I think change them is is a better way to look at it.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Well, but it might be also not change them, which is part of what you're saying, that, looking back for you, you know in your executive roles that maybe you became too flexible at times, and that the, you know, having the principles to be like Whoa might have been like. No, we? We aren't going to violate these. It would have been so so helpful.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Wanna also.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I just want to ask a follow up question, because, like, I have a personal thing about not living life with regrets.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But I still have a few, and one of them is around sort of what you're talking about, which is like the holding firm or the asking the bigger questions, or like just putting out there, because there does come a point where, if it's too out of sync with our vision, we're sad. We're not living our values. We're burning out, and all of that. And so there's this tension of I wish

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: have been bolder almost is the way that I think about it. But like, let's be honest when you have a salary and a career. And all of this stuff, there's a lot of risk that comes with that. And so I'm just wondering if you have advice, for like, when to hold the line or go big and bold versus just be like, okay, I can play smaller now.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, it's a great question. And it's I'll answer this in 2 ways, because I think there's elements of this which we need to this caveats number one, you know what's at stake, is it? You know you don't want to be, you know, holding your guns, or like putting a firm stance on everything.

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Tony Martignetti: It depends on how important it is to you and how important you're willing to go to bat for that particular issue. Like, if it's you know. Okay, what color are we going to make this? You know

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Tony Martignetti: I don't know what what fonts are we going to use? I'm not saying that probably design. People in the room are like, well, that's so important. We have to get the font right. But if to me personally, I'm like, well, you know that's not important. I'm not going to go to bat for that. That's not a good use of my social capital.

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Tony Martignetti: But you know for me, making sure that we're thinking about what's good for the user. Or, you know, because I was coming from a place of being in biotech for most of my career. It was always thinking about what's the what's gonna be the best for the patient? Right? And I think that's an important aspect. So don't you know, choose your battles if you think about it that way. But

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Tony Martignetti: I the reason why I'm going to bring a little caveat into this is because I just had a conversation with somebody about, like.

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Tony Martignetti: you know, taking big risks, especially as you get, you know, on in your career. And you start thinking about like, what if I take a big risk? And it puts my career in jeopardy?

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Tony Martignetti: Well, the question that I start to come up to is this is a sense of like.

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Tony Martignetti: you know, being quiet does not serve anyone, and even if there's a lot at risk.

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Tony Martignetti: you being quiet is is just holding you back, and the rest of the people.

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Tony Martignetti: So be careful about what you're being silent about. There's a question I ask a lot of people in coaching them. Is that what you tolerate is what you get. So be careful about what you tolerate. And so when you're staying silent, you're tolerating whatever it is that is not acceptable to you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I would just add again, just building on the conversation. I just had like bringing back your extreme curiosity.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: because it's like it's also the being quiet can obviously be detrimental. But there's an interesting intersection of

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: not being quiet, but asking the questions and bringing the curiosity behind that to unblock things that I don't know. If that's going to make sense my own personal journey. It makes a ton of sense. But all right, Tracy, back over to you.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): So tell me, not only have you lived as an executive in organizations, but now you've been supporting teams and organizations, and I wonder if you have kind of different insight into the challenges of leading transformation or for catalytic leaders. Now that you're you're, you know, on the support side and really helping them work through them.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, I mean, it's taken on a whole different ballgame for me, I mean, and for. And let me start by saying, because

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Tony Martignetti: people might think like, oh, every industry is the same, and every you know every team is dysfunctional in their own unique way. They are.

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Tony Martignetti: you know, the the thing that I've had a beautiful experience, especially over the past few years, has been this opportunity to work with companies in different industries and seeing how the challenges

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Tony Martignetti: they show up in different ways.

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Tony Martignetti: For example, you know, when it comes to dealing with setbacks when it comes to, you know, in biotech it was a very different way of dealing with setbacks, and how do they, you know, have to deal with all their stakeholders and voicing to, you know, different regulatory agencies. They know that everything matters. Everything that they say is is a major catastrophic event. If they say something wrong.

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Tony Martignetti: and when it comes to more creative disciplines, it's, you know. They want to make sure that every little detail matters like they they think about like, well, how are we saying this to that person? And how do we make sure that we get these little things dialed in correctly? And it can be you have to be really mindful of each different function, and how they're operating. So there's a lot of

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Tony Martignetti: different nuances to the communication. And so I really have seen a lot of different perspectives in terms of how teams work together, and I think that to me has been really valuable.

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Tony Martignetti: But it's also wonderful to be able to know that as people come together, the most wonderful part of this is to make sure people are connecting and understanding each other. To me. That's the underlying theme of everything. The more we get to know each other, the less likely that there's a malice behind our connection. I mean, behind our arguments

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Tony Martignetti: the arguments are more about like, Hey, how do we, you know I don't agree with you. Let's see if we can find a better way, or let's yes, and this, and and it's more about that

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Tony Martignetti: in the sake of a better.

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Tony Martignetti: You know way of working together as opposed to holding tight and being silent and saying like, Oh, I can't wait till this jerk gets gets fired, or they fall on their face.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love the build in this relationship. That's the intersection of curiosity and relationship building. That's

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): for you with yourself.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Right? What's really what really matters to me, and where am I willing to bend and be flexible? Where am I going to need to hold a boundary or decide? This isn't the place for me, and then extending that to others, and having that kind of beautiful, virtuous

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): cycle, be the thing that's going to help us be in relationship to creating change, and that that what I'm hearing you say is foundationally. The change is about the relationships

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): with yourself, with others, and seeing what's possible at this place at this time.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, I want to say something that might not come together quite seamlessly. But I'll try. It is that the work is us.

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Tony Martignetti: The work is not the work, the work is us. And ultimately, what it means is that you know, we have to show up and express ourselves in a way that allows other people to truly see

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Tony Martignetti: what it, what we're trying to bring to the table, what we're trying to to bring to the conversation, and ultimately through that messaging and how we create that messaging authentically, hopefully, the better off the work becomes. You know, it's not about.

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Tony Martignetti: Oh, we've got this brilliant idea, and then, because the idea is so brilliant, it will stand on its own. No, it's all about how we converse around the idea

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Tony Martignetti: that makes the idea, better

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Tony Martignetti: just make sense.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It makes sense. It's a mic drop, and I don't wanna like follow that up with anything I'm like.

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Tony Martignetti: That's so great.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I will say, though, I completely agree. And it's, you know. So like, I have a mission statement about helping the world's largest companies become more sustainable in every sense of the word. But the work that we do now, and the way that I intersect with that is, by helping people with their personal sustainability, which underpins all of that. And that's everything that you're talking about, and how we show up is the foundation for all of the systems that we're building

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: on top of it, so it can't be inauthentic or short-term focused, or all of the other things, because you just can't. It's like a house of cards. Then it just won't build sustainable structures.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah. And the more we hold back parts of like, well, like, you know, we have this thing we really feel. But we don't want to say it because we're afraid that like well, the people in tech Ops are going to say no. Well, maybe they won't, and maybe it's worth bringing that to the table and seeing what lands, and you know.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You're connecting with another place. I don't want to make this all about me, but I'm having all these insights, but it's just like the learning to ask for what you want can be really hard, because it can be scary. And so this goes back to the boldness that you were talking about before. Like, if you don't want horizon 2 or this kind of change, that's fine. But that's not aligned with my values right? And so helping the catalyst get to the point where they have the clarity.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But the the Kahunas to ask for what they want right.

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Tony Martignetti: Well, you bring me to something that I want to share, because I think it's a powerful shift that made me change the way I see the world and hat tip to Peter Bregman, who's 1 of the people who I really admire in the world. Peter said this thing to me, and he said well, to he wrote it in a book.

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Tony Martignetti: He didn't say it to me directly.

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Tony Martignetti: and it is. If you're willing to feel everything you can have anything.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah.

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Tony Martignetti: And and what I love about that quote. And it it comes from his book leading with emotional courage in the sense of like.

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Tony Martignetti: If you lean into the idea of like, I'm willing to have the courage to say the things that are, you know truly in my heart and in my mind. Then what happens is it opens the door for possibilities that are endless, right? It allows you to take the leap into the things that are unknown. It allows you to have those conversations that you think could be opening the door for

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Tony Martignetti: anything. You know. It's about reaching out to the person who you are scared is going to say, like or to not respond, you know, like the person you admire, who you'd love to have on your podcast it's you know. You reach out to them and say, Hey, I'd love to have a conversation with you. You inspire me.

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Tony Martignetti: having the courage to say that.

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Tony Martignetti: You know, dealing with the potential rejection or the ghosting is all about saying No, I let go of that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, right?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's an interesting segue, because, being a catalyst executive, or even a catalyst entrepreneur, or whatever can be a lonely journey.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: you misunderstood. You're moving too fast, like all of the things, and having people who are in your corner, I can say, at least for me personally helps with the bravery right? It's like, actually, you could ask for even more potentially this time. This is not the most insane request that you that you had. So I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you know communities of catalysts have played a role in your journey, or

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: or potentially what they're doing now.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, yeah. I mean a very, very big hat tip to my Clt catalyst Leadership trust, which has been so wonderful. And I'm new on the journey. But it has been wonderful to be in a group of people who are, you know, pushing the envelope in their different worlds, and it is a difference. Maker, I mean. One of the things that I often say is that we do our best thinking in community with others.

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Tony Martignetti: There's no there's no doubt about it. I can't be sitting here in my in my office, and you know, alone. And think I'm gonna I'm gonna solve the world's problems by just thinking it out.

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Tony Martignetti: It's not going to happen.

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Tony Martignetti: We have to be in community with other people who think differently.

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Tony Martignetti: who have this sense of like, you know, I want to challenge your thinking. And let's see if we can bounce ideas off each other. And ultimately, that's gonna make us all the better. And it reminds me of this idea that I explored in my last book, Campfire Lessons for Leaders, which is.

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Tony Martignetti: you know, divergent minds, convergent hearts the more that we have. People think differently, come together and have a sense of connection and and respect for each other. We can leave feeling a connection. And I think that's what the world needs more of nowadays than ever before.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: 100%. It's 1 of the core philosophies, it's like, you know, different minded but similar hearted. I love that you brought that in thanks, Tony.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): As we come to the end of our conversation today. Often our favorite question is, we'd love to hear about your favorite catalyst, past or present, who inspires you, and why?

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Tony Martignetti: Oh, gosh! This is a tough one, and I really I could go on for days. I mean, there's so many people who inspire me, and you know, but I'm going to choose somebody who is more present day and and alive, and I hope he's listening.

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Tony Martignetti: One of my favorite catalysts is Adam Grant

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Tony Martignetti: in his work as an organizational psychologist and author, has really been game changing, and, as you can probably imagine, he pushes people to think differently. Think again, is the name of his last, his second to last book, which just got me thinking about how like we often get so mired in patterns and into one way of thinking, we need to always be challenging.

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Tony Martignetti: Oh, what if? What if I'm wrong?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Hmm.

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Tony Martignetti: What if?

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Tony Martignetti: What if the world isn't flat, you know, like I'm being jokey. But you know, I think that's the thing that we always have to be thinking is, how do we come into community with other people and allow ourselves to be so open-minded that we're okay to lose the face of saying like, Oh, maybe that thing I said was not right. And it's okay.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah.

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Tony Martignetti: and so I think that's he's the person who always comes to mind when I think about like

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Tony Martignetti: someone who's a real catalytic thinker whether he knows it or not.

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Tony Martignetti: That's that's someone who always gets me thinking about this.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): He's such a humble guy. You're so. I love that like throwaway sentence of whether he knows it or not. Right?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah. His work in the originals was one of the few things that was already published when Shannon and I were doing initial research. There just was so little out there about the fire starters and folks that we talk about as catalysts. He had a slightly different frame in which he was looking at it, but it was a huge inspiration to the work we were doing. So.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, if I were to choose one of the person. Just because I want to put this in, I'm I'm a an architecture and museum. Geek but I I just love like the the architects like

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Tony Martignetti: Buckminster, Fuller, and the people who really pushed the envelope on like thinking. How did architecture? It didn't have to always be so rigid. It could be like, you know, a circle, or we could start pushing things into different forms and start to bring a whole different angle to way we look at buildings. And I think that those are the people who really got me thinking, wow! The world doesn't have to be so rigid.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): What is it you like about that? I'm so curious like, how does that impact your life? We haven't had a lot of folks bring architects.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But I'm with you, Tony. I totally agree with your perspective, and it changes everything like the impact on our mind of all the right angles that we live in totally.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, I mean, when you think about it for me, it's architecture, I mean, and buildings in their own way. They've influenced us so much since the beginning of time, you know, since the beginning of you know, building buildings with pyramids and the, you know, the early buildings of Europe and Asia, and the thing is that you come into like the more modern times. We got into this period of just like everything was a box.

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Tony Martignetti: and it was boring, and it was just non-inspirational. And then we started to see people coming in and saying like, No.

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Tony Martignetti: like, we need to make circles. We need to make you know things that kind of made us feel something, and when I think back to my early life, and I don't want to go off on a tangent. When I was a kid I used to do drawings and paintings that were about environments that had feelings and emotions. They weren't boxes.

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Tony Martignetti: They were colorful and really vibrant places that we wanted to live in. And you know, the teachers that I had, they used to always say, like, man, you've got something going on here.

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Tony Martignetti: and then I stuffed that away and said, Oh, I'll become a doctor, and of course I was a pre-med major, who then switched to business and was lost for many years, until I found my way back to what I love doing now.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love that the work that you do now helps reconnect with that spirit of curiosity and exploration. My my daughter is an artist, and she's almost angry as we drive through downtown Seattle, and she tells me all that. I just hate that they're all rectangles, and I'll be like, but that one looks cool. It cut it, and she's like it. Just cut a line a little bit at an angle, mom, it is still a rectangle.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): but you're right.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But it is interesting for the world of catalyst, because I feel like I mean, I go on and on about this, too. But it's like designing for the least common denominator or always designing just for quote, unquote efficiency actually doesn't make the world better.

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Tony Martignetti: Yeah, yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So thanks for sharing.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Tony. It is such a joy every time I get to be in space and time and conversation with you. So thank you for granting us this time today.

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Tony Martignetti: Oh, this was wonderful you! You bring the best out of me. So thank you.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Well, let's do it more, and thank you.

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Tony Martignetti: So much to the.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Listening audience. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world like Tony does, be sure to check out our book, move fast, break ship, burnout, or go to our website at catalystconstellations.com.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And if you enjoyed this conversation like we did, please take 10 seconds to read it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and of course, if you have other catalysts in your life, hit the share button and send a link their way thanks again.