Shannon Schuyler, Chief Purpose and Inclusion Officer at PwC: Intellectual Curiosity in Action

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon Lucas, one of the co-ceos at Catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break, shit burnout. Where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And today, I'm very excited to have time with maybe my 1st Shannon conversation. Shannon Schuyler. She's the Pwc's Us. Chief purpose and inclusion officer working to activate Pwc's purpose to build trust in society and solve important problems and to create a fulfilling employee experience. Amen. She also serves in the firm's Us. And Mexico climate risk leader

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: responsible for furthering diversity, inclusion, and equity across the firm's workforce. She connects purpose with belonging to create an environment in the firm that celebrates identity and intersectionality as a way to drive innovation and business value. Thanks for being here. Shannon.

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Shannon Schuyler: Thanks so much, and I love the 2 Shannons are doing this.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I know.

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Shannon Schuyler: Never happens.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Under twin powers, activate totally.

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Shannon Schuyler: I want to be the. I want to be the ice ladder that was always. I know the water. One was my favorite.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That makes me be the monkey, I think. But that's okay.

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Shannon Schuyler: It does. I'm sorry I jumped in.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: All right. I would love to. Obviously, people can check out your amazing bio online. But we would love to hear from you about your catalytic journey, maybe sharing a few career highlights that you're proud of to help us see your catalytic nature, and I would also love to hear about how you ended up with this title. I was looking at that online. It's such a fascinating story.

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Shannon Schuyler: No? Well, thanks so much, and and so proud to be able to be on here and to talk to other catalysts on what they're doing. I have had a very winding journey. I've been at Pwc. For 29 years. I look to leave every 4, and instead of leaving, I end up trying something different at the organization. And so it was not the typical way that people get to partner in leadership that's really follow the yellow brick road, and it will get you there like. I like to say that

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Shannon Schuyler: my path has been more of a climbing wall versus a ladder. I'm a little bit all over the place, but still trying to go up as I've done it.

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Shannon Schuyler: And so I'm a fixer. I've realized early on. I like to get in. I like to fix stuff, and then I like to move on, and then somebody else will make it better. But let me just try to fix it and do that. And so over the course of time, I have been a part of getting Pwc. On the Great Place to work list for the 1st time, and now they're on it. Every single year I wrote a white paper saying, I think we really should do corporate social responsibility, and

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Shannon Schuyler: said it blindly to my CEO when I was a director, and lo and behold! He called and said, if you want to do it, good luck! And so with one person and

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Shannon Schuyler: a lot of dedication. We now have incredible things. We started to do our environmental sustainability. We started the Pwc charitable foundation that started with $100,000, and now we're a 200 million dollars giving foundation. We were the 1st organization to put out a transparency report for De and I in our industry. We started CEO action for diversity and inclusion. Now 2,500 Ceos

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Shannon Schuyler: are part of that, and now we've just gifted it to sherm so like a lot of great things just based upon like, if you see the white space.

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Shannon Schuyler: how can you get there fast and then build it, but then hand it on to somebody else who's going to make it better.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: How does how do? How do you handle that? Because, like most catalysts, we can be, it can be our baby right? It's like, oh, I got this thing, and it's by definition going to change when you let it go into other people's hands. How do you navigate that.

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Shannon Schuyler: You know, I think that there are days that you do

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Shannon Schuyler: take a step back, and you're like I wouldn't have done that

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Shannon Schuyler: like, because this is what I wanted for that child. But I think it's also exciting to look back and say, Gosh! When I started the firm, one of the 1st things that we did is a program with the Disney Institute, and we took our interns to Disney for the last

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Shannon Schuyler: week or so of the summer after they got their offer. We have now done that every single year, so we've now done it. 28 years I've been there, the majority of them where we started with the 200 interns, and where we are now, with the 5,000 interns it's vastly different.

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Shannon Schuyler: But when I go there I think about. Oh, yeah, what did I do in the 1st time? So I think it's just exciting to see how people take these things. And they build something new, and and you're a part of the legacy of it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's cool framing. How do you know when it's time to make that transition to hand it off.

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Shannon Schuyler: I think it's when you got nothing new. I mean, I'm pretty honest with myself that if I'm kind of saying the same things over and over again, and you might have this. I have an incredible team, and they start to tell me when words are mentioned too often like if I'm saying. Oh, you know, and that's kind of what I know. Wait, I'm talking about this in the same way every time. There's probably somebody else who's gonna

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Shannon Schuyler: do it in a way that's going to take it to the next level, because I'm kind of stuck where I am. I also think it's about always finding what is the next

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Shannon Schuyler: handle on your wall like you gotta keep moving, and if you want to keep moving to move, you gotta let go of one hand in order to get the other one up. And so I think it also is forcing you to see what's next, because the more you can find out what's next. The more you want to leave behind what you had. So you can get that next cool thing.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's awesome. I love the intentionality and the rock climbing analogy.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So I'm curious, like in your own words. How do you relate to the concept of catalyst, and I'm also in curious how that intersects with being a catalyst and supporting you as an executive.

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Shannon Schuyler: It's such a great question, and I think I've

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Shannon Schuyler: often said which I looked at everything that you've done. And I really saw the alignment as a constructive disruptor. Now I think people were nice and putting constructive. I think sometimes I am just the disruptor, but I appreciate that. You know. I take that. And then also having called an inpatient catalyst, so as a board member kind of coined that, and of course I take it as very positive, even though I know it can be looked at in both ways.

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Shannon Schuyler: But in wanting to get to the next place, and wanting to get it for the institution

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Shannon Schuyler: for the group

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Shannon Schuyler: for the team, like feeling that if we can do that together like, let's figure out and let's push the limits to go there, and and I think that has helped me have so many roles at the firm, because there's always room to find the white space. You always have to find that place, that others haven't gone there first.st

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Shannon Schuyler: And I think to do that you got to be willing to shake things up, because, you know, people like the status quo, and so to be able to be disruptive and to be impatient in corporate America. It seems that

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Shannon Schuyler: you know it's like, well, next year we'll do it different, right? Because you're in a cycle. And I'm like, I don't want to wait till next year like, can't we do it like that next month like, what would that look like could we start it? And so I think that's kind of led my career as well as what's fueled me to stay so interested in it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's such great advice, and I want to double click on it like i. 1 of my mottos is to live life without regret, but I do have a couple, and one of them is that I wasn't bigger or bolder, or louder about some of the visions that I saw in organizations for where we could have taken it next time or then, yeah, I'm wondering if you have advice like you're like. So I wrote this sustainability paper and I sent it to the CEO like not everyone is going to do that, and that's not always welcome. So do you have advice for catalyst in terms of navigating, articulating the white space.

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Shannon Schuyler: I think the most important thing that people can do is to realize what brings them meaning and what brings them purpose. I mean, I'm the 1st person to say that I honestly had no idea about what that even was until I got the role of chief purpose officer. And then I was terrified that someone would be like, so what's your purpose? And I'd be like I don't know. But the firm's purpose is to build trust in society and solve important problems like, isn't that enough? And I was terrified that people wouldn't think that

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Shannon Schuyler: I could do that unless I figured out. Well, then, how does your purpose actually align like? How do you work there? And so I went through a big kind of

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Shannon Schuyler: self-awareness of what is it? And and realized that I had kept these playing cards all these years, and it was because I came from a very matriarchal family, and every year that head woman would sit at the end of the table and over the course of about 5 or 6 years all those women passed away.

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Shannon Schuyler: and that happened when I was, you know, in my twenties.

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Shannon Schuyler: and I carried those cards with me to remember each of them and what they did. But that was actually my purpose. I just didn't think about that until I was mid forties. Had I have done that when I was early twenties I would have made some different decisions. I would have made some more meaningful decisions, I would have been more thoughtful, more intentional. And so I think the sooner that people can say

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Shannon Schuyler: what makes me tick like, what are the things for me? It's to give a woman a voice, a woman who would come from a background of my mom being the 1st female state and local lobbyist, or a grandmother who started visiting nurses, or a grandmother, one of 12, who at, you know, I never saw her without pantyhose. Even it was 90 degrees like these are amazing women who never got a chance to have a voice like I have to live that for them

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Shannon Schuyler: and make decisions that are a part of that. And so we really focus on the sooner our people know what their personal purpose is that should be a part of what you do every day. That is the link to really having people find meaning in their jobs. And so I think that that's critical. Just reflect on that. Don't worry about sending the white paper in now. I know I wanted to do the white paper because one of my badass relatives would have done it, and I got to do it instead of them.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing advice. All right. You've been in one organization for a long time. Being in large organizations is both exciting and challenging for catalysts. I'm wondering if you can share one or 2 of the biggest challenges you've faced as a catalyst leader, but also, maybe how you overcame them. Also, we love, success and failure stories. It's all welcome.

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Shannon Schuyler: Oh, I'm telling you I've learned way more from my failure stories after I sent in my white paper to my CEO, and and he said, All right, give it a go. I had a presentation to our leadership team, and it was bad

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Shannon Schuyler: like it was bad. It was so bad that after it he was like, maybe we maybe I don't think this is going to work like maybe we shouldn't do corporate social responsibility and and reflection was because I went to the table

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Shannon Schuyler: really was something that I thought was fully baked on. Why the organization should go down this path, and and why we should have these things that come together, and why we shouldn't just give money and spread it like peanut butter, but but have a reason and a meaning that people could coalesce behind, and

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Shannon Schuyler: I win in such my own little mindset that I didn't win anybody around the table.

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Shannon Schuyler: And now to this very day we try to figure out. So what? What is the thing that each person has on their to do list? So they are successful to the CEO. What does that marketing person need? What does the our legal person need? What does our com person need? What does our Hr person need? And let us be the lever to pull to make them successful, and it was instead of saying, like, we all should come to the table and sing Kumbaya like, who cares. If everyone's around

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Shannon Schuyler: there, they'll come for whatever reason they want for this song over there, or that one over there. As long as they're at the table.

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Shannon Schuyler: We can get things done, and I think for a while I was too holier in that than I know why we should be there. And again, when I realized that no, and I let it go like, I realized that people go to different things, and it can be because their brain tells them to

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Shannon Schuyler: it could be because their heart tells them to.

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Shannon Schuyler: or it could be because their pocketbook tells them to, and I don't really care why now just they go, but that takes a while to kind of get used to that feeling.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's fascinating.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: how it's not easy to. I mean, there's 1 thing where you can see people's kpis and the objectives. I'm guessing that the intersection of Csr. You have to look a little bit differently at what those things are. How do you have advice to catalyst for how to understand what those wins are for the people that you want to get the get to the table.

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Shannon Schuyler: It's such a great question, and and I would say that whatever you do, and so just taking it now in the notion of Esg or or those areas.

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Shannon Schuyler: People like to say that you can't monetize it and that you can't. You know. How do you put a number on somebody engaged, or someone feeling meaningful. And I would argue that in this day and age, if you can't put a dollar sign next to it, and a couple of pieces of data. Don't do it because you don't belong at the table. Then, because the table means we're putting things on here that are very concrete.

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Shannon Schuyler: that are either advantageous or are risks at the organization. And this is why we have to put this towards it to make that investment. If you come and you say it's the right thing to do.

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Shannon Schuyler: No, our people will really like it.

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Shannon Schuyler: Well, do they really like? Is that true or not? Do our clients care or not does do all of our do our regulators care or not? You gotta actually be able to play in the same field as others do on tangible business issues, or else

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Shannon Schuyler: you're you don't belong there. And so I think it's whatever you do. You have to tell the strongest business case that needs to be a part of data and and needs to have a case study on why this works, and for which stakeholder, in order to be viable.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I agree completely. And there's this challenge for catalysts often where, like the case, study hasn't been written yet, because we haven't done it yet, like, we're trying net new things where there just might not be the historical data in the ways that there are for other business opportunities. How have you navigated that complexity.

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Shannon Schuyler: I, I would say, and it's like the business case for Dean. I

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Shannon Schuyler: right? I mean, everyone can be like here. We had a business case for Dean, and it's and it has monetary. And this will get

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Shannon Schuyler: but to be clear. If that was actually believed

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Shannon Schuyler: by leadership teams and by boards, we would have done it, and we would have fundamentally been in a different place around Dni than we are.

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Shannon Schuyler: So the business case has to actually be something that translates within that organization.

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Shannon Schuyler: So I actually think we're better off coming without one.

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Shannon Schuyler: So you have to create one based upon what is there today, not the business case is because you know this, many years ago this consulting firm did this and said that it's a nobody cares. So you need to look at now and and seriously like, now we are past Covid. We just had an election. So now

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Shannon Schuyler: why is it important to do? And I think it's easier if you're not hoping that you got some data from 2,018 that now doesn't matter at all of what will work and what won't work.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, I love the timeliness and the contextualization invitation. There are there other challenges that you've encountered as a catalyst exec and driving change in large orgs.

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Shannon Schuyler: You know. I I think it's getting out of your own way.

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Shannon Schuyler: I think you can charge so hard, and you can see it so clearly.

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Shannon Schuyler: But you can't do it alone, so you gotta get people on board to go it with you, which means you might need to slow it down a bit or or alternate, because the way you think in the way to get there, I sometimes think that my team must know through osmosis, because I I can tell when I'm talking to them. I'm missing like 10 words right? And either I've worked with them long enough. They're like, Oh, we know the words, or she

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Shannon Schuyler: can't spell so, but we can read between the lines of what you mean. But then the poor folks who are new to the team are like.

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Shannon Schuyler: Okay, that's crazy. But I don't even know what that is. So you have to make sure that you're communicating in a way that everybody understands, and and that might mean you need to change the way you communicate. That might mean you have to listen a little harder. That might mean you can't worry as much about something being shut down

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Shannon Schuyler: when it's not shut down yet. And so over the last couple of years, I've really been focused on stoicism as a way to control your emotions.

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Shannon Schuyler: Because I do get ahead of myself, and I think it's the worst possible thing that could happen. It never happens. But it's the thing that I think about all the time.

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Shannon Schuyler: And I think that's been really helpful

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Shannon Schuyler: to slow it a bit. And I do think that as we look at the generations at our firm and others.

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Shannon Schuyler: people are more thoughtful, and as a Gen. Xer.

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Shannon Schuyler: I have a lot to learn in order to make sure that I do that better.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Spot on, and I would love to geek out with you about stoicism in the.

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Shannon Schuyler: Section 3.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Change. I'm with you there. I want to. It's so fascinating, though, because you're right. Our speed, especially as catalyst leaders, the synapses that we can just sort of skip. How do you know? How do you evaluate when people are actually understanding you? Because I know I've been in the room when there's a lot of like shaking of the head, and it seems like they agree, and all of that. But then, at some point, you're like, oh, they? They didn't really understand. The message wasn't getting through.

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Shannon Schuyler: I I think that it's really making sure that you're showing how they demonstrate it. So one, I think.

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Shannon Schuyler: making them so. What do you think that means how? How would you say it in your own words? Right getting them to be able to say it so you can understand. Did they get kind of some of it or or not others, and then, being a part of their journey like it shouldn't be like, you're on high, and you're like, oh, these are the great things you should do. You suddenly need to be a bedfellow with them to say, No, let me let me do it with you

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Shannon Schuyler: like. Let me see how that works, so that I understand what might need to pivot as far as that communication on it, and so, making sure that you're now in it with them

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Shannon Schuyler: versus just hoping that they got it.

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Shannon Schuyler: and then they go off, and they didn't want to ask the 2 questions more to really find out what you were saying, and so to you gotta go with every lead that you have, so that you can help them to be able to morph it into what makes sense for their group, and to really have an appreciation that they understood just the basic framework of it. And now it's okay. How are they going to build it? And plus, that's really exciting, because it's exciting to see how one leader takes it

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Shannon Schuyler: and makes it look different, even though the framework is the same like that's exciting, and something to learn from.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Totally

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: what I hear, though, when you talk about this is the amount of emotional labor that we have to do as catalyst, and often, you know, we talk about this in the book like burnout is real, that there's a lot of empathy and listening and self-management and others management. How do you maintain your energy as a catalyst leader, doing all of that.

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Shannon Schuyler: It's such a big question. And

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Shannon Schuyler: I am. I really am interested in this notion of continually learning one of the things that I've done for years is every other week I send about 20 articles to the team

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Shannon Schuyler: I'm like, Oh, Narcobi is freezer. I might want to look at this, you know, and many of them don't, or maybe they find one. But I'm just fascinated with

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Shannon Schuyler: how much knowledge, how much changes like that excites me over how to look at something different. How do you? Now? What does AI mean like, what? How is that going to impact these things? And I think that allows your world to continue to grow, and the conversations that you have, and really being intellectually curious

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Shannon Schuyler: over all the different tentacles, I just got done taking an Mit course around sustainability after I've led sustainability for 15 years. And I was fascinated. I was like, Okay, I never looked at it in that way and wanted to be able to do that. And so I think people need to push themselves beyond what they're looking at every day, and to find those things that

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Shannon Schuyler: really excite them. And kind of the next thing I've always said, you know, have your job right now, but start looking for what's next, and the only way to find out what's next is you figure out what are the 3 or 4 other things you're interested in, and how you might then get to that place.

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Shannon Schuyler: And then I I do believe that burnout is

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Shannon Schuyler: real, and I think you have to recognize when it's you.

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Shannon Schuyler: because you're typically the last one to know.

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Shannon Schuyler: Oh, and then go back to. Okay. What is recharging? There's

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Shannon Schuyler: There's a great kind of cartoon that's out there. And I I carried around, and it's the elephant, and the elephant says, and elephants are my spirit animal. I don't know why. And it's I must rest. My rampage is over.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And.

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Shannon Schuyler: I kind of. I kind of realized, here's my little one, that I I realized that.

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Shannon Schuyler: Okay, that let's put a PIN in it like you've you've gone as far as you can.

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Shannon Schuyler: Let's rest on that one.

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Shannon Schuyler: We'll figure out what's next. But you got at some point. You gotta say, all right. I knock this one as far as I can out of the park. And now

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Shannon Schuyler: let's regroup and figure out what's the next one to try.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Have you identified like earlier warning signals instead of like? For me, it was like, I'd be like, almost sick in the hospital, you know, 15 years ago, and now it's like I'm starting to get ahead of it a little bit. Do you have early warning signs for you around Burnout.

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Shannon Schuyler: I do

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Shannon Schuyler: for me. It's I can't stop. I can't turn it off like I I can't. And so, whether it's.

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Shannon Schuyler: you know, easily way after the time it takes to get home. But I but I can't like I can't. In the evenings I can't on the weekends. I can't sleep through the night because it just has consumed me, and I have a 12 year old, son, and then he starts like saying the words, and I realize. Oh, my God, I'm talking about that way too much like if you he's like. So what? I can't believe the inclusion of blend. I'm like, Okay, I guess there's no reason that at 12 he should

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Shannon Schuyler: have to be a part of this crazy dialogue in quoting it back to me and say so. Why are you so upset about that? I'm like, all right, I'm gonna turn that off my dogs. If I'm working from home usually are underneath my desk, and they also, if I get to a tone like there's a pitch, and then they kind of start howling. And I'm like that's bad. It's very bad if I get there. That means you've gone over the deep end, and it's time to

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Shannon Schuyler: sit back and figure it out and stop.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I love. I love that the humans and the animals around you are mirrors that's really brilliant.

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Shannon Schuyler: Totally.

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Shannon Schuyler: But it's really smart.

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Shannon Schuyler: It just be you. It has to be others. Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering there's a theme that we've been hearing a lot. So I wanted to tap into. Maybe some other pearls of wisdom, not just maybe challenges and feel free to take this wherever you want. But one of the things that we're hearing a lot is, organizations are being asked to do more with less.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And this does connect with burnout. But it also becomes really hard for the change. Agents who are trying to create new things, because, you know, now the priorities are even more focused. Getting through the noise is really hard. Have you been seeing that? And do you have advice for for Catalyst in that situation.

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Shannon Schuyler: It's such a great thing to reflect on.

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Shannon Schuyler: My job was so much easier when there was like 2 of us.

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Shannon Schuyler: right? So when there was 2 of us, and you had no money.

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Shannon Schuyler: it was. You could only do what you could do, and you had to make it really meaningful, and you had to really leverage where the other money and the other people are. And so you knew there was a lot more people that were sitting within human capital or recruiting. There was a lot more people who sat in marketing and Comms. There was a lot more people who sat in finance.

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Shannon Schuyler: so the more that you could connect the dots back to an organization within the firm that actually had resources and money, the more you could get things done on their back of doing it.

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Shannon Schuyler: And I think then suddenly, when you have all the people and you have all the money.

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Shannon Schuyler: I think sometimes it becomes a little harder

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Shannon Schuyler: because you're forgetting that we can create it. But they might not come.

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Shannon Schuyler: And you can't just create it in your vacuum of this is something great because it might not be. And you really should have gotten those 5 stakeholders to do it, and you know they'll really do it when they give you the budget to do it.

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Shannon Schuyler: and that actually works

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Shannon Schuyler: better when you think I got all the money and the resources, and we'll just launch it. And suddenly someone will come. It actually doesn't work like that. And so I would tell people that some of that is a gift.

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Shannon Schuyler: The money people aren't motivated by how much money you spent on a campaign for them to get engaged and feel like Pro bono giving green picket and the universe that I'm part of is important. That's a personal.

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Shannon Schuyler: And the people who aren't gonna be able to get there because their heart takes them there. You're gonna get there because their mind takes them there, or because their client wants to do it. And so it's back to saying it's the psychology of it. It's not the

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Shannon Schuyler: dollars of it.

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Shannon Schuyler: And and I think we all can take that as it's okay, if there's fewer people, and it's okay, if there's less money, but that means that you have to work on a behavioral shift. That, frankly, is harder, but that's more sustainable. Once you get it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You're making me want to like. Write a paper on that. It's such a good reframe. It really is such a good reframe, and it's such a good opportunity for catalyst like both when I was doing the innovation program. But even our catalyst programs now, when people get like accepted into the program. And they're starting to think about the big juicy problems. One of the 1st questions in our 1st Q&A is, okay, what's our budget. And I'm like you have no budget.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You have no budget. You have to go find the things that people give a shit around the organization and make it make them care so that they're using their resources, which in the end makes you much more successful, totally. And you'll find out really quick if there's no there there

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: find the next thing super. Small.

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Shannon Schuyler: Right? Cause. I'm like, you guys, they don't buy it. That means they don't like it totally. So we can do all we can to build this course for this, and it's sparkly and shiny, and the location is great, but it but they gotta buy it, and if they don't want to buy it. Then, whatever we created in the budget that we had clearly doesn't matter, because they're not gonna go.

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Shannon Schuyler: but that I mean, I I think it's really good intention. People who, again, going back to my 1st example of I built it because I thought people would come. But that's not how it actually happens like you have to let them tell you what they will come for and then build it in that direction. And and it's amazing that it's not all money. It's not all money

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Shannon Schuyler: really, isn't.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, it's such a good lesson. Are there other trends that you're seeing? That might be impacting catalysts in sort of this crazy spiral of disruption and change on a sort of macro level.

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Shannon Schuyler: I really think that catalyst need to look at

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Shannon Schuyler: all the levers that are in

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Shannon Schuyler: their sphere of influence, or are tangential to that sphere of influence because

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Shannon Schuyler: you have to realize that you can. You want to pull different levers at different times, like, if if we go through an election and something's happening. And suddenly, like, people don't want to talk about Dni, the most. Okay. So what do they want to talk about?

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Shannon Schuyler: They wanna talk about the economy. Okay, so let's pull on that one. Okay, let's pull on climate. Like, let's let's look at what is working. And if you have a lot of things across the portfolio.

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Shannon Schuyler: You want to be in the position to say, all right, that one can go up. But now I can pull on this, and if you're only focused on one thing, and you only think you have one answer. For one thing that's gonna jam you.

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Shannon Schuyler: You got to make sure that your portfolio, even across something that is in one area. You gotta. You gotta give yourself some room because you're not. You can't die on the vine. If you can't pull that lever, then what happens to you? Nothing good. So you got to really look at all the different ways to get there, and I think one of the things that catalysts are really good at is they're not just one trick ponies

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Shannon Schuyler: right? They're like I could do this, or I could do this, or I could do this. Well, get ready, get ready to figure out all right. This one's not going to work as much. So what one are you going to go after? And I think that that's something that catalysts are really good at. But they need to stay on their toes and figure out what those are, and that allows them to continue to be nimble and looking for different ways out versus saying, there's 1 way which

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Shannon Schuyler: you know is never going to be good if that one happens to not go in your in your way.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, I want to write an article about that, too. So thank you for that.

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Shannon Schuyler: Me too.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, no, I think the portfolio approach. It's funny, because, you know, when we do these podcasts, sometimes we hear themes like on a daily or weekly basis. And I think that portfolio, that portfolio view, is really important right now, and it's coming out loud and clear because there's so much disruption. You don't know, you know we're adaptive, but we don't know which ones are going to change in the, you know drop of a hat. So I really, I really love that. Thank you. All right.

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Shannon Schuyler: And I think that that goes back to just being intellectually curious like, you gotta figure out what is the next thing before. It's the next thing, because you want to be, when a conversation suddenly you walk into a room, and people are like, you know what I'm sick of talking about this. Let's talk about this. You gotta know what this is, cause you continue to read and to understand and to say, Okay, so what is that? Next thing people are talking about, and you want to at least read enough

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Shannon Schuyler: to answer the 1st 2 questions. The 3, rd you'll just go. Oh, my gosh, yes, I'm gonna have to look at that and go back and research more. But you gotta be in the know of those upcoming trends and be ready to be a part of that conversation just for 2 questions. That's all you gotta do. And then you can go back and learn more. Based upon where the conversation went.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: How do you do? You carve out specific time to do that? It is such an important thing like, how do you keep your finger on the pulse of what? What's emergent in your world.

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Shannon Schuyler: I do. So I I have this like an article pile.

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Shannon Schuyler: That is just like everything goes here, and unfortunately I do still print it out, and then I find with them on a plane or on the weekends, or like like. Then I start going through the pile, and then you're like, Oh, that one isn't going to get me anywhere. But then there's some that are really interesting, and they also prompt me to reach out to a leader that maybe I wasn't thinking about to say, oh, my gosh! Did you read this

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Shannon Schuyler: like? I think you're the one who introduced me to this theory like, what do you think about it? And it's a way to continue to build your network. It forces you to say, All right. Who knows more about this, and I'm gonna keep reaching out to then that person. So it's both a network expander as well as really a mind expander of the way in the world, and how people are looking at things and really good conversation starters. But you know you

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Shannon Schuyler: all have the free time when you're

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Shannon Schuyler: looking at those things. And so that's when I take, you know, the opportunity to breeze through an article and go.

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Shannon Schuyler: Oh, like that made me think. Who else can I send this to to make them think.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Nice.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Okay? Actually, I decided to add one more question before the fun. Final question, because you have multiple times. It sounds like pitched, creating a new role for where society was you were. The organization is that's a great opportunity. When catalyst get to do that, I'm just wondering if you have any advice on what worked going through that process, and what didn't work.

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Shannon Schuyler: No, it's a great question. I think what has worked is saying. This is the white space. This is how I'm going to measure it.

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Shannon Schuyler: And this is why it's going to be meaningful to the organization's top stakeholders

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Shannon Schuyler: and and be able to put some meat on that kind of framework to show that it's real and as well as to say and listen.

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Shannon Schuyler: I will do this. I will do it for no more money. I don't need any resources. Let me just prove it, let me prove it, and it it might prove it that it's a no go, or I might be able to prove that this is actually something there. There. And then we can talk about how it would get resourced. And so I think, going in it with also, you gotta figure out if it's gonna work or not. And I think some of that is, we have to be really candid with ourselves, like, there have been great programs that I think from a meaningful standpoint.

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Shannon Schuyler: and I think, even from those individuals who have gone through it standpoint.

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Shannon Schuyler: we're really solid. But if I'm real.

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Shannon Schuyler: It didn't advance the organization. Those people didn't stay any longer. We can't tie any of it to a return on investment.

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Shannon Schuyler: and we gotta just cut it.

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Shannon Schuyler: and you need to own that side, too, and I think a lot of times we don't want to do that, but the faster we can say I tested it. I tried it. You know what? There really isn't any there, there, I liked it

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Shannon Schuyler: and cut it. That really makes sure that that's what a business does. Business tries it. If it doesn't work, they say, let it go. They emotionally don't get tied to it. And I and I think that's something that

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Shannon Schuyler: we have to be really focused on doing, because catalysts like to build and like to create.

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Shannon Schuyler: But then you have to be equally as look in the mirror. Does it really work? If it doesn't? If you are the one to say I really like this, I really thought it would work. I'm also going to be the one who pulls its plug.

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Shannon Schuyler: Totally. That means something.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And it can be so hard for us. It's like, you know the couple I mean more than one. But some of the times that I ran into the biggest challenges, or when my ego, or identity or something, became tied to the thing that I was working on, and I couldn't be objective enough to just say, like, either let it go, or take the feedback, or pivot, or whatever. So thank you. Thank you for sharing

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: all right. Final fun question, who's your favorite famous catalyst that inspires you, past or present? And why.

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Shannon Schuyler: I love this question, and and it's 1 that I think, depending upon the day it might be somebody different.

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Shannon Schuyler: But Arianna Huffington.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, I have to say.

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Shannon Schuyler: I have had a girl crush on her for a very long time, and she always is reinventing herself, and the way that she looks at things, and she has a great quote. That's the most important thing for Achievers is to study the science of achieving.

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Shannon Schuyler: And I love that because you have to figure out. Why are you like that as a catalyst? Why are you like that? What is the way that made you that? Because we actually have to figure that out and let others do the same.

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Shannon Schuyler: And I just have been so impressed with how she has looked at meaning more recently, how she's looked at mental health.

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Shannon Schuyler: but she has reinvented herself in so many different ways, and

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Shannon Schuyler: I just am overwhelmed with what she has been able to do, and and how she has looked at her career, her, her personal reason for being there, and her purpose that

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Shannon Schuyler: I just think that she's 1 of the coolest panelists out there.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amen. I totally agree. I have the girl crush on her, too, like she. And she spends just such a trailblazer. It's really

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: yeah. We stand on the shoulders of giants like her.

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Shannon Schuyler: We do, and you just look from afar, and I'm like, Oh, my God! You're so cool! But gosh! Very inspiring!

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Shannon. Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom with us today. It was fascinating.

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Shannon Schuyler: It is amazing to be with you, Shannon, so very much looking forward to it again.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Awesome, and to our listeners thanks so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out our book, move fast, break shit for now, or go to the website at catalystconstellations.com. And if you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I'm a total fangirl. Now, please take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and of course. If you have other catalysts in your life, hit the share button and send a link their way thanks again.