Ruth Gotian, Chief Learning Officer at Weill Cornell Medicine: Do Something Important

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon, Lucas.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm Tracy Lovejoy. We're the co-ceos at Catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalysts to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break ship burnout where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today we're super excited to have time with Ruth Gautian. Ruth is a prolific mentor and educator, leading important research into the secrets of success.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: She's an award-winning leadership expert and a globally recognized mentor named the world's Number one emerging management thinker by thinkers, 50 and a top 20 global mentor.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: She's the chief learning officer at will. Cornell medicine. She helps organizations, achieve achieve success by conceiving, designing, and launching innovative programs and redesigning and fixing the underperforming ones

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: based on years of research she studies the most successful people of our generation. This part is so cool, including Nobel laureates, astronauts, that we were just talking about Olympic champions in order to understand what they do when the world isn't watching.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Her. Work has been featured in top publications like Forbes and the Harvard Business Review, and inspires others to pursue and achieve their highest potential

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: welcome. Ruth.

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Ruth Gotian: Hello! Hello!

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Lovely to have you? All right. Well, let's just jump right in. So like, I said, that's a small synopsis of the amazing impact you've already had. Tell us a little bit about your catalytic journey, maybe sharing a few career highlights that you're proud of, that help us see your catalytic nature.

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Ruth Gotian: Well, I you know I think

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Ruth Gotian: people just give you these labels. I don't know that this is a label I would have given myself, but I'll embrace it, and and I think the reason that it was thrown on me at me is because if there's a road that most people go on. That's never the road that I take.

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Ruth Gotian: not because I'm looking for something different. I would much rather have the easier road.

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Ruth Gotian: but the easier road just didn't seem so interesting to me.

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Ruth Gotian: And if you want interesting, and you want challenging, and you want opportunity, and you want to be able to do things bigger, better, faster, differently create things that didn't exist before.

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Ruth Gotian: Then you have to go down that road that no one else was willing to go on.

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Ruth Gotian: and I did so much so that I went back to school at 43.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing, amazing people. Often, actually, when catalysts go through the 1st like self recognition phase, sometimes not all the time. So people be like, do. I have an option to not be a catalyst for exactly the road like it's definitely not the easiest road. Right? So I'm wondering like what what is the burning thing behind you taking the road like? How do you think that like have you been like that since you were young? Was there a transformational moment where you're like, I'm just operating differently than everyone.

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Ruth Gotian: I didn't recognize it at the time. But, come to think of it, you know, as I look back, you know, if you were to hold up that mirror. Then. Yeah, probably right. When I was 10 years old

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Ruth Gotian: in my school sport, the recess we had recess period, and it was always split by gender.

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Ruth Gotian: The boys got to play soccer, and the girls traded stickers right. This is at a time way before phones. I was not interested in the high commodity sticker exchange, where the googly eyed stickers were worth more than the one dimensional flat ones. I had 0 interest in that. I mean, girls. We came with our albums. It was all very organized. I just wanted to kick a ball around. I had Andrea. I wanted to kick a ball around.

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Ruth Gotian: But my teacher said, Girls don't play soccer.

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Ruth Gotian: and I was 10, and this didn't make sense to me, because I was physically capable of kicking a ball.

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Ruth Gotian: So I went to the library. Remember, this is pre-internet.

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Ruth Gotian: I went to the library, and I took out every book that the library had. My neighborhood library had that had pictures of girls playing soccer.

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Ruth Gotian: and Monday morning I walked into school. I put the stack of books on his desk, and I said I'd like to revisit that conversation about my playing soccer at recess.

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Ruth Gotian: Now, no one told me to do this. Obviously, then, I got to play, but there was only a boys team, so I played with the boys, and anyway, it made me really good. But

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Ruth Gotian: the reason that happened was I wasn't interested in stickers. I wanted to

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Ruth Gotian: kick a ball around. I had to find a way to do it, either, you know. Help me or get out of the way, because it's going to happen.

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Ruth Gotian: So.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing story.

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Ruth Gotian: That has been the story of my life.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Also, you just brought me back to a very visceral experience of the sticker culture. So thank you for that. But so like, what did your parents say when that happened like? Did they understand and get you? Is that something that they had modeled for you?

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Ruth Gotian: Well, I come from a family. I'm the only woman in my family in 4 generations, so I had

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Ruth Gotian: seen men doing it this way fighting for what they want their entire life. I didn't know that there was any other way.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And.

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Ruth Gotian: And my grandmother went to Pharmacy School.

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Ruth Gotian: There were 300 men and 13 women in her class.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Wow!

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Ruth Gotian: So I think this is really in my DNA. If you want something.

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Ruth Gotian: you make the case for it, and you go for it, and everyone else either hop on the bus or get out of the way.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing. I love it. I'm wondering what you know what it means to you like how you relate to the concept of catalyst. We talked about about this a little bit, but also like, How does being a catalyst support you in the amazing impact that you've had in the world?

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Ruth Gotian: Well, now that I realize that the path that people haven't traveled on, it's not because I'm going in the wrong direction. It's just a direction no one's thought of before.

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Ruth Gotian: and I have learned to be comfortable with that discomfort and that took years decades.

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Ruth Gotian: because I realize it's uncomfortable right now, but every day, every hour, every person I meet. I am learning something new, and I use that knowledge to then develop and create and bring to life, an idea, a project, a program

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Ruth Gotian: and keeps working.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: How did you get? I mean, it sounds like you at 10 were sort of like already, Bullish, in terms of, you know, leaning in and and having that sort of quote unquote, tough conversation with the teacher. But it's a different. It can be maybe different stakes when you're having that like level of uncomfortability in your professional world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Do you have tips for people? And I'll just say, like, we often end up in roles where we have like the imposter syndrome because no one's ever done it before. Or it's like, Yeah, that new thing. How do you? How do you navigate that.

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Ruth Gotian: Yeah, well, 1st of all, so 70% of us have imposter syndrome, right? But

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Ruth Gotian: people view it as a sign of failure. I've never done it before. They're going to think I'm an imposter. I actually feel. And I wrote about this in psychology today, I actually feel like it's a sign of success.

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Ruth Gotian: You are feeling it because you are doing something no one has ever done before.

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Ruth Gotian: so your body is confused as to how to feel about it. But really it should be a sign of success because you're achieving something, and that achievement is new to you. Once I shifted that way of thinking about it. To me. Anything then becomes possible, and I think professionally. If you want to be that catalyst and do something new and create something.

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Ruth Gotian: 1st of all you have to do your research 1st

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Ruth Gotian: right, you have to see where is the gap?

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Ruth Gotian: Then you have to make a business case for that gap.

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Ruth Gotian: and how you can fix that gap and close it, and once you do that, that is hermetically sealed, that is as good as gold, because you've identified the gap.

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Ruth Gotian: The business reason behind why that gap and filling that gap is important, how you were the solution to this problem. They hadn't even realized they had, and how that would help the business case. And if you're able to do that.

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Ruth Gotian: then you are really able to push yourself forward. Now, recognize it will not be easy.

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Ruth Gotian: because you are doing something no one else has done before.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Not shockingly amazing mentor advice from one of the world's foremost mentors. So thank you for that amazing. We always love it when people give us kind of formulaic ways to address some of the biggest challenges that our population has. So, thank you.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I'm curious in your journey. I love the story at 10, creating, you know, the path in a road that didn't exist.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: When I look at your history and look at your professional accomplishments.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I see a shift from when it was, you know, like Ruth wants to play soccer.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And then there's, you know, ways that you've created change that also are impacting others not to say that that moment didn't also create opportunity for other women. But it wasn't the goal it sounds like. Was there a conscious moment that you go back to? Is that shifted, or was it kind of always driven by like

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I want to go do this.

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Ruth Gotian: I think then it was. I want to go. Do this, and if other people

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Ruth Gotian: want to come along or come along after.

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Ruth Gotian: by all means. And by the way, I got a video a few years ago, now this has been over 40 years since that whole soccer situation. And someone sent me a video. They said, just wanted you to know the school has a girls soccer team. And we want to send you the video. The story is legendary around the school.

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Ruth Gotian: so

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Ruth Gotian: it I think it creates something, and it opens the opportunity. Look! I hinted. I went back to school for my doctorate at a much later age. I was 43,

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Ruth Gotian: and of course, you know, people said Don't do it, and blah blah blah.

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Ruth Gotian: I did it because I wanted to do it. I had a burning question, and again either hop on the bus or get out of the way.

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Ruth Gotian: and I was very forthcoming about the journey.

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Ruth Gotian: Here are the classes. I have papers coming up with a dissertation. I, you know, interviewed these people. I wrote these chapters. I have my defense. I was really out there with it.

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Ruth Gotian: and to date, 6 people have already told me that they went back to school to either get their bachelor's Master's law degree or doctorate because they were following the story.

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Ruth Gotian: So I think we can all have this ripple effect, even when it's unintended.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Ruth Gotian: And I think it's important to create those ripple effects so that you can help people that you will never have the opportunity to meet.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I just love that it's even in when we teach it, we definitely start from the the vision that people have that makes the world better.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I really like the invitation for folks to say it is okay for us to start from what we are called to do and what feels important for us, and understanding that in tackling that there is positive ripple, especially if you're sharing it.

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Ruth Gotian: Yes.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: You're talking about with your degree that is so beautiful.

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Ruth Gotian: Well, that's how you create impact, right? Because

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Ruth Gotian: what we know and what I know from my research on high performers is that it all started with their intrinsic motivation this burning question that they had inside of them. Because once this is that burning question.

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Ruth Gotian: you can't. You're jumping out of bed. You're so excited to tackle it right, and you can't quiet your mind at night. Once you're able to do that, it becomes exciting. It becomes your reason for being, and you're willing to do whatever it takes. I mean, just ask any Olympian right? Why did they put that level of work and focus into it. This is what they love to do.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And.

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Ruth Gotian: It's beyond loving what you do. It's it's their purpose. It grounds them.

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Ruth Gotian: And I think in doing so they are able to open the doors for so many others. Now.

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Ruth Gotian: my mentor.

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Ruth Gotian: when I told him I was going back to school, and we were discussing what I would do my research on, he said. 6 words that changed my life.

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Ruth Gotian: he said, do something important, not just interesting.

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Ruth Gotian: He didn't tell me what to do, what not to do. But this those 6 words changed my life

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Ruth Gotian: because the project I was intending to do would have been a pilot study at one institution, not really much of an impact.

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Ruth Gotian: but by making it important I made it an international study.

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Ruth Gotian: And now, all of a sudden, it's a catalyst for change.

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Ruth Gotian: And that led to a Ted talk and articles and books and keynotes and coaching, and all of that stuff.

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Ruth Gotian: because of those 6 words do something important, not just interesting.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: It helps me so much in the work we do, and who we support right. The intersectionality of intrinsic motivation and important.

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Ruth Gotian: Yep.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And I don't know that we talk about the intrinsic motivation part enough, the important part

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: we cover. So thank you. That's an incredible gift.

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Ruth Gotian: Yes, and for for those who

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Ruth Gotian: may not know, the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic

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Ruth Gotian: extrinsic is when you're doing it for the awards, rewards, promotions, bonuses, recognition. It's really when other people are judging you.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Okay.

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Ruth Gotian: And that is really hard to maintain the motivation for that, to do it for someone else. But when you're doing it

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Ruth Gotian: ideally for yourself.

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Ruth Gotian: That's when it gets so much bigger, right? You see, it becomes bigger than you are.

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Ruth Gotian: and I know this is true, because every time I interview an Olympian, an Nba champion.

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Ruth Gotian: Nfl. Hall of famer, I say, you know. Show me your ring. Show me your medal. Show me, you know whatever.

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Ruth Gotian: and they'll say, hold on a second, and they have to run. Get it. It's in the safe. It's in the nightstand drawer. It's under the bed, it's you know. Apollo. Ono had it in a brown paper bag in his sock drawer.

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Ruth Gotian: and I said, I don't understand. I would wear it around my neck all day long, and they said to me, it was never about the metal.

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Ruth Gotian: They said, that's a chapter in my life not the entire story.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Ruth Gotian: Now, if you think about it, I've interviewed many, many Nobel Prize winners.

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Ruth Gotian: I don't know of a single one who quit doing science just because they won the Nobel Prize.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Right.

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Ruth Gotian: If anything, they double down.

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Ruth Gotian: It was never about the mail. It's nice to be recognized for what you do. Don't get me wrong. We all want that nobody wants to be overlooked.

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Ruth Gotian: but that cannot be your driving force. That is too hard to maintain.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, it's interesting. And I'll bridge this to your work organizationally, because you do all kinds of work. And that's a piece of what you do that for catalysts sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic motivation is often the starting point.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: The orchestration required to really move change in those environments can disconnect us from the energy of that intrinsic motivation. Which is why I'm realizing us making that really clear, for people would be very valuable for them to go back to right plus. There's a lot of emotional labor that we need to do when we're creating change in these environments that can

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: to you. And so having that front and center would be amazing. So thinking about organizational environments, you're the chief learning officer. You've been revolutionary. And what you've been able to build in environments, and so would love to hear what are some of the biggest challenges that you have faced

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: as an executive catalyst in these environments.

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Ruth Gotian: I. You know, I think one of the things are. We have these ideas for great programs. Right? We did our research. We figured out what the gap is. We found the business case for the Gap. We found a program to fill the gap. Everything's on board right? We got funding. We're doing everything we need to do. Okay, we're going to do it at, you know. Tuesday at 3 o'clock.

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Ruth Gotian: not realizing that most people can't get out Tuesday at 3 o'clock.

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Ruth Gotian: or for whatever reason some people are. A large chunk of people are not in, or there's a major conference. Everyone's going to be away because we're crossing sectors and industries.

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Ruth Gotian: So sometimes the logistics.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Hmm.

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Ruth Gotian: Really can make an incredible program fall flat.

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Ruth Gotian: Because if no one's there for it.

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Ruth Gotian: right? It's as if it didn't happen.

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Ruth Gotian: So that's problem number one, problem number 2, wearing my adult educator hat.

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Ruth Gotian: Too often, I see people develop programs. And they're like, great. We've got this program. We're going to do a workshop. We're going to, you know, it's going to be experiential. And you know, I said, that's great.

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Ruth Gotian: And what about the other learners? How are they going to take in and process that information?

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Ruth Gotian: Not everyone learns by listening.

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Ruth Gotian: Some people want to read it on their own.

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Ruth Gotian: Some people need to get their hands dirty and actually work with the material in order for them to be able to learn it. Now, I'm not saying this one's a kinesthetic learner, and this one's an auditory learner. We know that's been debunked. That's not true. But as adults we don't all take in and process information the same way.

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Ruth Gotian: but yet, for some reason, everyone's insisting on delivering content in the same way.

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Ruth Gotian: So one of the things that I encourage people to do. If you want to teach something. If you want to share knowledge about an idea.

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Ruth Gotian: You need to have it delivered in different ways. One. You will catch people with these different schedules, different time zones that we have. Now you will able to

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Ruth Gotian: to collect all of that, and really make sure that you're reaching all of these people. And 2, you want to deliver it in different formats.

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Ruth Gotian: Sure, you want the workshop. But you also want something that's more passive. You want to allow people to read it. You want. Maybe somebody wants a podcast maybe somebody needs it more gamified.

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Ruth Gotian: Right? Some sort of e-learning course where it's gamified. So there's different ways to deliver content. And we need to be able to deliver the content via different mediums across time zones, and that, I think, is still a work in progress.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I love the tactical nature of the challenges you're helping us bring forward, because it can be easy for catalysts to kind of sit at an ethereal place.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So talk to me about how you've overcome, like, what are the things that we know about logistics, and I'll translate your language a little bit into like, what we talk about is communicating. Right? Yeah, very like, how do I communicate to folks who take in information in a variety of ways. Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: grant us your wisdom and learning. Right?

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Ruth Gotian: So

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Ruth Gotian: whenever we work on a program, I ha! I curate options so that people can take it in different ways. Yes, we'll have a keynote, or we'll have a workshop. We'll have a speaker absolutely.

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Ruth Gotian: But I will also direct them to articles on the topics, podcasts on the topics, linkedin learning courses on the topics.

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Ruth Gotian: I've developed several Linkedin learning courses on the topics that I hear people wanting the most such as how to coach your team to learn, stretch and grow, and how to become an inspiring mentor, and how to engage your high achievers. So those are things that people have been asking about. So I was able to use another platform to create those courses so that people can

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Ruth Gotian: learn them on their own. And I think that has really helped between articles and podcasts and webinars and Linkedin learning courses and bringing someone in.

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Ruth Gotian: I think it offers more opportunities. It's significantly more cost effective. And we're able to reach people across time, zones and days.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I love the thinking on how you've achieved it, and then also the measures of success that you were looking for in what you put in place. So thank you for that last comment.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I also think I mean, this is this is a personal reflection on building on yours, Ruth, but I'd love your thoughts about it because one of the things that I as I've mentored people or coached people, or whatever is the logistics, can be so like the the biggest determinants, not just of success, but of timing.

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Ruth Gotian: Trading.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Change can take such a long time that I've I've encouraged people to like lay out for the other stakeholders like, if you're going to get on these executives calendars. It's going to take you 6 months. It's not. You're not gonna be able to get on the calendar of all 10 leaders, at the same time just wondering if you have any like advice around how catalyst can navigate the challenges of logistics and bring people along.

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Ruth Gotian: So first, st my question is, why do you need to get on all 10 calendars?

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Ruth Gotian: Right? I think you need. You need to question that original assumption. What is it you need from them that you need to have meetings? Right? Mark Cuban doesn't have meetings. He does emails. Right?

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Ruth Gotian: So why do you need to have meetings with everyone? What is it that you need from them? Is there another way to communicate? Do you need their buy in, or is it just an fyi? If it's an Fyi, don't waste their time. Just send them an email or a text message.

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Ruth Gotian: right? And there are other ways that you can communicate. Now, remember, if you're solving a problem for them, you want to be the aspirin, not the vitamin.

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Ruth Gotian: You want to solve a problem for them, and then you'll see that they make time for you.

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Ruth Gotian: If you're doing extra, here's a little more glitter. Here's a new bell. Here's a new whistle. Sorry I've got 55 crises I'm trying to solve right now. Your your bills will have to wait.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's really good feedback from the system, right? Like, if you're having trouble getting X resource or time with people, you're not probably hitting the pain point well enough.

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Ruth Gotian: 100%.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: A 100%.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So we have. We normally ask for like wisdom for catalyst executives, and generally leave it pretty broad. But given your expertise around mentorship. I think it would be super interesting for you to maybe give guidance to both the catalyst leaders who might be the mentors, but also the catalyst mentees.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and I'll just say one of the challenges that we know is that there's not a lot of catalysts that like rise up to the top echelons of large organizations which there's. So there's a little bit of like a scarcity potentially for catalyst mentors. And I guess I there's an assumption in there that as catalysts we need catalyst mentors, so would love your thoughts around the intersection of mentorship and catalysts.

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Ruth Gotian: So

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Ruth Gotian: I would argue that you don't. You certainly need one or 2. Right? So I am in favor, and all the research shows that you should have a team of mentors. But if everyone is going to be a catalyst like you, you are going to be in an echo chamber.

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Ruth Gotian: and you're not going to hear anything new.

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Ruth Gotian: And sometimes the solutions to problems we're having

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Ruth Gotian: come from something that's completely different.

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Ruth Gotian: So the checklist that you see in operating rooms.

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Ruth Gotian: Right? So the problem they were having was medical errors.

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Ruth Gotian: which was saved by a checklist. That idea for a checklist

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Ruth Gotian: came from what pilots use from the aviation industry.

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Ruth Gotian: which is why you want people who are different than you. You really, you need not just want. You need that diversity of thought.

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Ruth Gotian: and that happens from people who are senior to you at your level and junior to you. So don't just be stuck with. You need somebody who's more senior to you. That's passe now.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And advice to catalyst executives who might be mentoring people.

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Ruth Gotian: So I think 1st of all, do not create them as a mini version of you.

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Ruth Gotian: That is my 1st piece of advice. I see that happening so often, I would really start the question with, what's keeping you up at night?

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Ruth Gotian: Because what's keeping you up at night says you have a challenge, and if you don't have a challenge, you need to have a challenge.

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Ruth Gotian: and that challenge could be from a stretch assignment, a new opportunity, whatever it is but something to get them to really start to stretch, because we're like rubber bands.

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Ruth Gotian: Once we start to stretch, we no longer go to our original form.

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Ruth Gotian: So as mentors, you always want to stretch your mentees. Now, you don't want to go too far, because they'll snap, but you don't want to do too little, because then they're not challenged. So, finding that right medium also recommend other people who should be on their mentoring team.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Nice.

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Ruth Gotian: So again, people who are like you, people who are different than you. Then you want to ask them, What do you want to do

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Ruth Gotian: right. And now in the future.

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Ruth Gotian: And let's figure out what skills you need for that. And let's figure out what skills you don't yet have for that.

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Ruth Gotian: And again, how are we filling that gap?

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Ruth Gotian: So it all comes back to filling that gap.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Love it super tangible. Thank you.

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Ruth Gotian: All about the actionable tips.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I, totally as we wrap up the section around wisdom, you

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: clearly like your whole life has been around taking the road. That wasn't easy if that was the path that was of interest to you.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So I'm curious, from your own experience.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: kind of what are the hardest lessons you've learned

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: when that's your natural way of being

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: like, where have you hit the potholes

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: in the roads less traveled or never traveled.

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Ruth Gotian: A lot of potholes, lot of barriers, a lot of craters.

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Ruth Gotian: a lot of people who will stand in your way because it threatens their position. Yes.

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Ruth Gotian: I was not prepared for that at all.

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Ruth Gotian: I'm still not. It's still very hurtful when it happens.

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Ruth Gotian: but notice that there are some people who think that a light on you detracts from the light on them.

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Ruth Gotian: I've interviewed many astronauts who have promised me that there's enough light for all of us to shine.

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Ruth Gotian: So that's, I think, a major issue. I think another major issue is, nobody really knows how to evaluate you. The standards that are for other people don't apply to you.

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Ruth Gotian: So when you need to go up for a promotion, and very often for a job that doesn't even exist.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, right.

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Ruth Gotian: You need to start creating your own jobs, it becomes very challenging.

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Ruth Gotian: right? You are always the square peg in the roundhold, always.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yep.

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Ruth Gotian: Always the unicorn.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That's Shannon. That's Shannon's favorite descriptor for for catalysts. You you couldn't. I mean, you could potentially know that. But

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: okay, you hit on something that like it really like hits me in my solar plexus. This idea of people kind of standing in the way that are threatened by what you're doing, and you're like do to do skipping down the road less path, you know.

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Ruth Gotian: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: For this end thing.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: This overlaps something we see a lot in our research, I believe, is gaslighting that people can experience in the organization, because often we're not paying attention

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: like that because we're so excited about what we saw at the end of the road. And so I wonder what kind of wisdom you've gained. And how do we recognize like? -Oh.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: this is someone who doesn't want the light taken off of them and put on me. And then what do you do? Once you recognize it.

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Ruth Gotian: So a few things. One of the things that I have learned is on the bottom. People compete, and at the top they collaborate.

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Ruth Gotian: And those who truly want to move forward.

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Ruth Gotian: We'll collaborate, truly. Look at any athletes who work together

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Ruth Gotian: right? Look at any Nba team. It's not going to work unless they all shine.

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Ruth Gotian: You can't have one shine and 4 not. You can't have 4 shining and one not

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Ruth Gotian: all 5 need to shine, they need to work in unison.

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Ruth Gotian: So I think that's 1 of the things. Another thing to notice is if somebody's complaining about something about everyone else.

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Ruth Gotian: It's just a matter of time before they complain about you.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So you're scanning the environment well ahead. You're seeing the signs.

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Ruth Gotian: Look for clues.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, long before you've kind of been like, oh, look! This person who seems like they've been supporting me is actually not.

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Ruth Gotian: I knew.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Who are seeing it early.

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Ruth Gotian: Yeah. And when they start taking credit for your work.

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Ruth Gotian: that's the time to really reevaluate things, because it's only gonna get worse from there.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I wonder if there's a direct correlation with how shiny and unicorny they describe you at the beginning versus how it ends.

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Ruth Gotian: Oh!

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You know.

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Ruth Gotian: I don't know. But if I had to think about these other unicorns who I know

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Ruth Gotian: at the beginning, they're the best thing since sliced bread.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Right.

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Ruth Gotian: And afterwards they're barely mentioned, even though the ideas were theirs.

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Ruth Gotian: The implementation was theirs.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And there's a question about how they're left standing. They're like squashed on the road in the in the.

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Ruth Gotian: Yeah. Well, that's why I created that Linkedin, learning course of engaging your high performers

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Ruth Gotian: because they were not engaged, and then you lose them.

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Ruth Gotian: And what we know is that they are at minimum 400% more productive than average employees.

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Ruth Gotian: And in some of the technical fields like software development. They are 800 more productive. So if we're squashing those people, we're going to be left with the average employees.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: What kind of overlap do you think there might be between the high performer audience that you've identified and what we talk about with catalysts? I'm so curious.

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Ruth Gotian: Well, I haven't studied that, but I would guess that there's definitely an overlap. People who think differently, who are curious about something and then go after it. Look a lot of us have

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Ruth Gotian: ideas and are curious and are googling and going down rabbit holes. But there's a difference between passively going down a rabbit hole on your phone

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Ruth Gotian: versus coming up with a plan and going for it.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Totally. Yeah. And that's a telltale for us as catalysts. It's the you know they have. They? They take in information, they create the visions, and then they're tripping over themselves into action.

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Ruth Gotian: Exactly.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Terrific.

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Ruth Gotian: Fast enough.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. So I feel like, we probably have a fair, fair amount of overlap. And so the researcher in me is like, Hmm, how much of her research can I begin to integrate?

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And that's that's good stuff. Being able to talk about a 400% productivity gain. I like that.

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Ruth Gotian: It's all in the book, the success factor. It's all in there.

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Ruth Gotian: I'm not.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: All right. As we wrap up our time together, we have that fun question, who's your favorite inspirational catalyst? And why?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It sounds like you have like an insane network, too. So I'm super curious who you pick.

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Ruth Gotian: I I yes, the network is my contact list is is fun.

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Ruth Gotian: But I'll tell you the type of person. First, st it is the person who is the square peg in the round hole, who was the 1st to do things.

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Ruth Gotian: because I learn a lot from their journeys

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Ruth Gotian: of how to deal with things of how to do things. And

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Ruth Gotian: there are a lot of people who have done incredible things. And if you know, if I were to start with some of the women, because they're those are the ones that come to mind.

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Ruth Gotian: I 1st read the book a higher standard

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Ruth Gotian: by General Anne Dunwoody. She was the 1st female Four-star, general and high, was

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Ruth Gotian: blown away, blown away. She's definitely on my list of people I want to interview.

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Ruth Gotian: She was great Eileen Collins, the 1st female commander of a space shuttle.

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Ruth Gotian: I mean. She had to also take the shuttle after the Columbia disaster. All eyes were on her.

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Ruth Gotian: and she had to do a maneuver where she had to turn the shuttle upside down, so that the space station could take a picture of tiles that fell off. I mean, unbelievable, unbelievable that she got her crew home safely. Incredible.

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Ruth Gotian: So people like that

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Ruth Gotian: to me are amazing because they've done incredible things and are humble. So I know Eileen Collins, and she's super humble. So it's not just achieving the greatness. It's also being humble about it.

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Ruth Gotian: Steve Kerr. He's the coach of the Golden State Warriors. He coached

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Ruth Gotian: team, U.S.A. Basketball men's Basketball to the gold medal.

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Ruth Gotian: He wrote the forward to my book, Financial Times guide to mentoring

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Ruth Gotian: 9 Nba championships, and the most

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Ruth Gotian: humble person I have ever met.

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Ruth Gotian: The forward, he wrote. I didn't have to change one word. It is all him. It comes from the heart, he is values based, and it comes through with everything that he does.

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Ruth Gotian: So those kind of people who are willing to do things that other people didn't do.

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Ruth Gotian: really. That's what I get super excited about.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing an amazing call to action, for our listeners like leaning in that way.

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Ruth Gotian: Hmm, yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This was tremendous super fantastic conversation, Ruth. Thank you so much for spending your time with us.

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Ruth Gotian: My pleasure.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And as we wrap up today for our listeners, thanks so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out our book, move fast, break, shit, burn out, or go to our website at catalystconstellations.com.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And if you enjoyed this episode, and we know you did, because, oh, my gosh, this was insane. Take a few seconds, rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher wherever you listen to your podcasts. And for all those other catalysts in your life or high potential achievers, because we're seeing some overlap hit the share button and send a link their way.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you again. Thank you so much, Ruth.