Renee Henze, Chief Sustainability Officer at IFF (International Flavors and Fragrances) - Overcoming Organizational Resistance in Sustainable Practices

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon, Lucas.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And I'm Tracy Lovejoy. We're the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break, burnout, where we speak with catalyst executives, about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And we're super excited today to have time with Renee. Henzie Renee is the chief sustainability officer at IFF international flavors and fragrances which I have to say has a great tagline where science and creativity meet. Also, you need to check out their website because they do everything. It was insane to go down that rabbit hole. Renee is also an adjunct professor of marketing at Nyu school of professional studies, where she teaches graduate classes in new product development.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: brand strategy and sustainable marketing. Welcome, Renee, lovely to have you.

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Renee Henze: Hi! Thanks for having me happy to be here.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So we'd love for you to introduce yourself. I got the 2 sentences, but I'd love to hear about your catalytic journey. Maybe you can share a couple of highlights that you're proud of, that help us see your catalytic nature.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, absolutely. So I you know, as as you introduced, I I currently lead sustainability at at at Iff. But really, you know, I'm I am not a sustainability professional by by training or by by nature. I kind of fell into it in in in my journey. Along the way, I've been really fortunate for the last 10 to 12 years that I've been in involved in businesses

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Renee Henze: that are very much about products and innovation in kind of the sustainability space.

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Renee Henze: And I

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Renee Henze: have said for that 10 to 12 years. I felt very, very fortunate because I came up through a sales marketing business management track in my career. But the sustainability piece, I'm personally very passionate about it and the environment and social aspects. And so the one of the light bulb moments that I I had, and I'll I'll share with you what business that was in was when I went. Oh, my gosh!

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Renee Henze: I could actually have my personal passion and my professional passion merge, and I get to do what I love every day. And so that's you know, something that we all are are looking for. Right? So so, as I said, I, I kind of came up through. I I started my career in in sales field sales. And so, you know, once a sales rep, always a sales rep. And I continue to, you know, knock on people's doors about.

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Renee Henze: Can you invite me to that customer conversation, and you know they roll their eyes. But you know, at this point they kind of like bring me along, and I hope I can add some value to the conversation.

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Renee Henze: You know, I think I think you know as we're as we're talking about. You know what are. What are some of your career highlights? You know that kind of demonstrate your catalytic nature.

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Renee Henze: and you know, I think you know, early in my career I. So my 1st sales role. I was in a business that we sold pool and spa chemicals, and it's like as simple as that. It was working for a chemical company, and we were thinking about, how do we do it?

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Renee Henze: In a way that's bit more friendly to friendly to people. And and at that point in time. This is 20 some years ago, wasn't about friendly to nature. But if I look back on it, it actually did have an environmental component to it.

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Renee Henze: And I I. So I was in in sales for a number of years. But then I went in. Became a product manager and and a brand and marketing manager, and we were about to launch a new line of Spa hot tub chemicals. And you know, I just looked at. Kind of you know what we now call like the sea of sameness, and everything was, you know, just

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Renee Henze: blue and white. And

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Renee Henze: and I just said, Oh, my gosh! There's gotta be a different way, and a different way to to think about this, to make it, you know, to make it either more beautiful or more appealing and and kind of break out of that sea of sameness.

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Renee Henze: And so it was really for me. It was about giving them a a brand, a personality, taking some of my marketing skills and turning that into doing something that was really, you know, different. And so what we did is because they were friendlier to to humans. We did this beautiful photo shoot of people's body parts and just, you know. And people, you know, my boss is like, well, what does this have to do with sanitizing pool and spa chemicals

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Renee Henze: like? Probably nothing. It has nothing to do with the sanitization it has to do about how people feel and the emotional connection that they have to the product we're selling. And from there we went on, and you know, created

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Renee Henze: a bunch of other offshoots of that. And you know I did one that was very retro, 19 fifties, palm, springy kind of mid-century modern. And it was just like a playful, different way of thinking about a chemical. And it really was a chemical.

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Renee Henze: So that was, you know, maybe the 1st time in at least in my career, that I was like, like, okay to me, this is obvious that we should do something different here, but it took a little bit of nudging to get people to go along.

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Renee Henze: and then maybe kind of fast forward many, many, many years, and my 1st foray into Oh, my gosh! Sustainability is really my calling, and where I can plant my career

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Renee Henze: was in in a role that we had a basically.

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Renee Henze: it was when I was working in Dupont, and we were making a product that was an an omega. 3 product

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Renee Henze: and Omega threes can be used for human health, but they also are really important components in feed for for salmon and salmon, aquaculture and farming salmon.

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Renee Henze: And so we knew that we had a product there that we wanted to sell, and so we decided to partner. We weren't, of course, raising salmon ourselves at Dupont, but we decided to partner with a salmon farmer in Chile

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Renee Henze: and

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Renee Henze: thinking about, how do you

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Renee Henze: feed the salmon differently and have a sustainability value proposition. So normally you use wild caught feeder fish, and you feed the salmon with those, and it's not a very sustainable practice.

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Renee Henze: So by virtue of the product that we had, we could do it more sustainably. But that wasn't really the catalytic part. That was kind of the, you know, that's the path we're gonna go. We're gonna sell a product part.

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Renee Henze: Maybe it was a little bit different because we were

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Renee Henze: doing something in kind of the the food space and the aquaculture space. But the

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Renee Henze: where, I think, you know, I showed up in a different space there was when I said, Well, look, if we're gonna kind of walk into selling salmon and branding salmon, so that was really unique and different.

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Renee Henze: How do we actually raise this fish in a really different way? Are there are there practices on the farm near the Salmon farm? How are people treating these fish? How are people raising them and antibiotic use and density of pens? And just

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Renee Henze: so we went out and we we had a discussion with the world. With wwf the world wildlife foundation like, how are people farming salmon? And what are the negatives to that? So it wasn't just about creating one product. It was creating this whole entire story and structure and way of doing salmon farming that was completely different than what had been done

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Renee Henze: before. And so we were wildly successful in in creating that space and and doing that. So those are, I guess you know, and I could. I probably could go on. But you want me to talk about other things, too. But those were, I think I look at. You know, those 2 things, and as we, you know, we're talking and reading your book.

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Renee Henze: At the time, I didn't think that those were anything more than those are cool ideas. But reading your book now, I'm like, Oh, maybe maybe that's the catalytic nature in me, right.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: 100%. Okay. But I'm so I'm curious. You said there was a light bulb moment when I realized that I could like, bring my person, my person, my professional, and my passion, together with, did was that one of the roles that you just outlined? What was that role.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, it was this aquaculture role when I was doing something different, entirely different in in Dupont at that point in time. And I was ready for a different role. And I saw this, and it had this whole sustainability and food systems and food security and oceans and all of that.

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Renee Henze: And that was the light gold moment. And I thought, I am going to do everything I can do to get this job because I care so deeply about these things personally, and I know that if I could do that, you know, like in the 70 or 80 h work week, it'll be, you know it'll be amazing. And it really was.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you, and I also love that you shared the early stage one because we might not even know what our passion is, or the capital P, or capital purpose, right when we're in our earlier stage career. But what's fascinating is how catalyst will still be catalysts in those roles you're like, I'm going to revitalize this industry by doing this amazing marketing and talking to how people feel about it, and just bring

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: that totally like outside in off the wall, thinking. So. Thanks. Thanks for for sharing that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm wondering, too, like in all of that. How do you think that? Well, let me start with. How do you think that being? How do you define being a catalyst like we heard some of the traits there, the outside thinking, the passion, the purpose, the bringing people along. But how do you personally relate to the concept of catalyst.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, I mean, I think. And again, you you did this so beautifully in your book, and when I read it

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Renee Henze: gosh! Like somebody gets it, you know. I just think that I am able to look at things, connect the dots quickly, drive in the direction that I think will enable success, and something that will drive a better solution or a future state.

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Renee Henze: yeah, I mean, you know, we you know we talked about, you know, when you and I spoke previously. Shannon, I said to you, I'm just Renee like this is not, and maybe we all feel that way. And I'm like I'm just Renee, like this is not unique. This is different. It's the way I work, and I don't think it's special. I don't think it's unique. Everybody has their way of working, but that is something that I just always

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Renee Henze: been able to do good and bad right? And again you you've pointed it out like, you know. Maybe we all sit back and say, Well, why, why can't you see the same thing I see, or catch up like? Catch up? Why, why is it taking you so long to catch up to me with this?

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Renee Henze: And I'm frustrated because can't you see how this is going to be successful? And you're throwing all of these like landmines in my way. And I just want to do it. So yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Huh!

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Renee Henze: I mean, yeah. And I've been really, really fortunate that I have had

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Renee Henze: networks around me, and mentors and bosses who have

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Renee Henze: allowed me to bring some of these things to light. Now, some of that is through trial and error, and you have to build up that credibility to have people around you for the most part allow you to take things that they may deem is riskier. Right so. But I've been very fortunate in many of the moments that I would describe as catalytic, that I have had the support of the

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Renee Henze: organization around me.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And also just in how you opened it, like what I hear there, and a lot of hard work and elbow grease. It's not like you're just expecting the mentors for things to drop in your lap or the trust to be built. It's like I'm gonna work a lot of hours to make this thing a reality.

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Renee Henze: Absolutely. Yeah, right? You know. So right? So right now, I. So I've been in this the cso role for a year, and one of the one of the big things that I

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Renee Henze: have been trying to drive is that I call it. I call it sustainability with a capital S. And that many, many

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Renee Henze: times, many companies. When you look at sustainability as a corporate function, it is very internally focused as as a lot of it needs to be from a compliance and a regulatory standpoint, and you need to do the right thing as as a company. But I but I'm also looking at

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Renee Henze: at it as a competitive advantage for all the things that we do within our innovation space products, customers and trying to really drive us as a market back, understanding what our customers need, what our business units need, and then dialing that into the corporate thinking. And that's

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Renee Henze: that's been. And I'm still doing it. It's been a year long process to align my current team, the overall businesses to

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Renee Henze: what that means, what that looks like and absolutely building the credibility that I need to make that shift within the organization, because the you know, the 1st

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Renee Henze: 3 weeks or 4 weeks when I was like, let me go see customers like, who are you? Go put the right light bulbs in the, you know, led lights in and go save energy that way, and I'm like, that's not what we're gonna be about. So again, it's it takes that time to to build that. And it really is about doing and showing

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Renee Henze: rather than just talking.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hopefully, more and more people are recognizing the actual meaningful impact that you're going to bring to the organization with that lens. And you, as I pivot to the next question. You've already outlined a couple of things, you know. The question is around like, so you know

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: how has being a cattle supported your executive journey essentially, and I hear you saying it's like you're doing the dot connecting. You're doing the person connecting and establishing the credibility and bringing people along. But what would you say in terms of how, being a catalyst has supported your journey.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, I mean, I think that's th. That's absolutely it, I mean. And and and you know, as you both know, when when you get it right. You get it right. And you're, you know, a rock star for a day or a week. But there's a lot of not getting it right along the way, too, and I think that that is almost as important or more important than the the getting it right is how you show up in those moments that

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Renee Henze: things aren't going well. And what is your fortitude? What is your character? How do you? You know? How do you manage those things? Being somebody who just wants to go and move and go on. Move on to the next thing you know, as you grow in an organization, and particularly as you're leading teams and people.

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Renee Henze: You need to have that, whether you call it Eq. Or you know, leadership style to be able to step back and and look at the things that haven't

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Renee Henze: ended up in Rock Star moments and be able to frame those up, use them as learning experiences, use them, maybe as a springboard or a trajectory to the to the next space, and and maybe that leads into a little bit of the discussion again. You you write about it so well in your book, about catalyst meeting to

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Renee Henze: there's mindfulness, but there's also empathy.

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Renee Henze: And to me that is

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Renee Henze: such a critical part of my journey in, you know, to to more executive roles. Is that

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Renee Henze: understanding people and the empathy part

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Renee Henze: with a lens towards how can I be overwhelming to people. And how do I need to manage that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes, we need to double click on that, because how you show up when it's not going well and how we can be overwhelming for others. It's easy to say those words right? And we can even see as catalysts. Why, that's important. But how do you do that? And maybe how do you model that for other people in your organization?

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Renee Henze: The the not overwhelming piece, or the.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Well, both, I mean, like I mean, overwhelming piece is a way that we might fail and alienate. But you sort of started with, you know, like when it's not going well or we're not the rock star. How do we show up in those moments? Is the credibility is that you know we're not scaring people more. Maybe in those moments.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, I mean again, some of it. Some of it comes with perspective and age and and those types of things, the things probably you know that I would have gotten completely worked up about at, you know, 25 and even 35, you know, at this point in my career, I'm like, you know. Let's just take a beat here, think about it, put it in perspective, and

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Renee Henze: try. Try to be the try to be the voice of calm when there's all the chaos going on around you, because even, you know, even when you're working with people who aren't necessarily catalyst.

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Renee Henze: there's a lot of many times in people's mind and lives. There is chaos, and there is drama and you know, I think being a catalyst is also

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Renee Henze: an opportunity to channel some of that I can see things. I can see the pieces. I can see where this is going and not going, and try and bring a level of

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Renee Henze: deep breathe and calmness to people can't who can't necessarily do that, and and and and kind of pull that together. So I you know, I think.

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Renee Henze: and I'm not sure, you know, if you'd both agree. But I think you know, using catalyst in a way that channels some of that calm and perspective, and being able to see things not always just like big blue ocean thinking. But like, what does the organization need right now? And what is the what is the people? Piece of this need right now?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: that it's so true, and especially because there's so much swirl just in the world right now, and that as the change leaders us, adding to that with our too muchness or too fastness, or whatever can really derail

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: the efforts of change that we really want to realize in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm wondering, though, like this is, this is a personal hot take, and I'm wondering how it plays out with you, because the times that I have. The hardest time is when I'm so passionate about the thing.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and this is the double edge sort of getting to embody your passion and purpose in the world in your job. And so it's like, if the world is really going to be better and for moving the needle forward. And it doesn't work out that way or like we're overwhelming people on that process. The regulation for me, anyway, can be harder. Is that something that you grapple with, or you just like, I just have the skills now, and I can apply them across the board.

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Renee Henze: No, I mean, you know, I I have more skills than I did, you know, 20 years ago in my career. But no, I mean, and you know, and I still feel that sense of frustration. But there is.

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Renee Henze: I don't wanna say always, but almost always another way of going at the

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Renee Henze: problem or the idea. And so, yeah, there's the, here's the linear path. I can see A to FI can see it. And that's how I want to go.

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Renee Henze: but it may be I have to go from A to T to Y back to F because of organizational roadblocks or people challenges. I still want to get to F, but I realize that there are probably a couple of different ways, and some of them are faster and some of them are slower. But I mean, I think I you know, unless it's something you know.

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Renee Henze: completely antic, you know, antithetical to what the organization wants to do or believes in. I think you can get get there. But it's just understanding if there is a different path that you have to take to get there.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Such good advice.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: but it's probably.

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Renee Henze: It is frustrating.

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Renee Henze: but it is also. I found, too, it when I started managing

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Renee Henze: people and needed to put my

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Renee Henze: big girl hat on as a manager like I can't completely go off the rails and be like this isn't working for me. So thought that when you need to model, and I think that was part of your question. When you need to model things like, you know, for those of us who are parents like, Okay, yes, sometimes you just need your kids to see the real. I just need to go off

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Renee Henze: the rails. But you need to kind of model that and temper that and say, Okay, well, let me let me show. Let me model patience. Let me model empathy. It's the same when you have a team of people, and as much as I may want to. Just kind of like.

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Renee Henze: you know. Push the door open, and, you know, be a troublemaker, or be of, you know whatever

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Renee Henze: kind of have to model that for your team. So I think there's a balance of it to show them that you want to do these things, and that you're frustrated alongside of them. But

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Renee Henze: how do we take a step back? And what are some alternatives, and also think about why those roadblocks are there, whether it's a person or an organizational challenge.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Can ask one more question. Tracy.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, working over.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Because I'm I'm super curious. W. So we have the sneak peek about some of the stuff that you do outside of work. But like, are there activities or skills or ways that you've the muscles that you've developed to handle, that frustration and pivot back into the mindfulness that empathy, the calmness.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, absolutely. And again it. You know you, you talked about it in your book, about, you know whatever people think about whether you know mindfulness, or you talk about getting into nature, and th. Those are all things I mean. I've always been very, very avid hiker skier runner. I I'd love to exercise, and they could be outside, you know, a hundred percent. I would. I'd rather be outside, so that

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Renee Henze: to me has always been a really important stretch management tool as well as you know, particularly if I can go hiking. I truly and I'd love. I love this feeling.

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Renee Henze: It really happens within the 1st

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Renee Henze: call it 5 min of being in nature. I feel like a deep breath.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Honey.

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Renee Henze: So shoulders down just everything, and and people find a diff. You know their different way. You know mine is hiking or skiing. People find their their different way. So I do that I do. I do yoga probably not as much as I should, but I do. I find that that calmness there

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Renee Henze: and then also, you know again, I think hopefully, and I think we all have different mechanisms. I try as much as possible to put up

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Renee Henze: I don't know how you would

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Renee Henze: term. I've always called it guardrails right like I block time in my calendar because I have to get work done. Or now, since the pandemic and we've been working from home a lot, I do actually block time in the morning like this is my exercise or meditation or yoga time. So I need that because going go go go because we can.

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Renee Henze: But it doesn't mean we should.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amen!

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Renee Henze: Yeah.

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Renee Henze: And I do absolutely again. This part of it is a pact I made with my husband many years ago. Part of it is trying to model for my team. I will disconnect like when I am. I mean, if you need to reach me for an emergency. Fine. But I am not checking email when I'm on vacation this week and part of the my husband said, part of the reason we go hiking in these remote locations is like.

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Renee Henze: I'm so sorry I can't get a cell signal like I love it. It's great.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I had to train my husband we would come back from rock climbing or backpacking things I was like, because as soon as the bars hit. He'd be like on his phone because he's an entrepreneur. He's a CEO and all that stuff. I was like, Babe. Nobody else in the world knows that you just got signal, so you can even wait. But we'll drive home.

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Renee Henze: You're okay.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You're okay.

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Renee Henze: I love it. I'm not one of these people who freaked out. If I don't have a a a, a signal, I mean something really important going on. Yes, but I'm kinda like, Oh, too bad. The Wi-fi and the planes not working. Okay.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I I understand that that is, yes.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): so much beautiful wisdom to share with fellow executives in your journey. Thank you so much. And I'm I'm curious. What are some of the biggest challenges as an executive, especially as a catalytic executive? You have faced.

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Renee Henze: Talked a a little bit. A a about it. You know, already, Tracy. I mean, some of it is organizational resistance to change. And that's just that's just thematic for organizations period and people period. But I think when you have people like us who are catalyst, and you know we can. I've heard it then, just I've heard myself and others like us described as they can just suck the oxygen out of the room.

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Renee Henze: It! It's tough, right? Because, you know, even if even if you're trying to affect a small change.

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Renee Henze: it's tough. But then you're like, Well, why are we trying to do like this little bitty incremental change. If we're going to change, let's just let's go. Let's go in and do it and break shit. Let's just break shit like. No, let's not see of sameness.

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Renee Henze: So that's really tough. And and I've worked in organizations. And I'm married to a scientist. So I'm going to say this, and my background is, I have a science degree. But I've worked in organizations with science and scientists and engineers for my whole career, and that also happens to be a

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Renee Henze: generalizing. But it's a mindset who isn't as open to risk taking in change as you know. You walk into an ad agency, and they're like, I'll change every day. So so that so again, so so organizational resistance to change, I think, is has been one of

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Renee Henze: one of the challenges. And and again, where where I think I've been most effective, is trying to understand what? Why, why are people resistant to that? What's going on? Because we're all creatures of emotion, what's going on

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Renee Henze: with them? That that's causing that? And you know, and and is it? Is it a good enough idea to really put the effort and energy in towards. Because, you know the boy who cried Wolf! Or the girl who cried Wolf, if everything's important, nothing's important.

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Renee Henze: So let's make sure that we fight for the right things, and then we don't tilt at windmills.

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Renee Henze: The the other thing, too, particularly as I'm kind of now in the sustainability role is keeping up with these constant market shifts. Whether it's

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Renee Henze: customer dynamics, consumer dynamics, or in the field of sustainability. It is moving and advancing so quickly that keeping up with it is a huge, a huge challenge for myself and and my team, so trying to figure out again like, what do we need to focus on? What are the moments that really matter? And where? Where can we kind of lay back on some things and take a deep breath, and let those just sit alongside.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): You've actually hit on 2 of the biggest topics that Shannon and I are thinking about right now, which is

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): kind of crazy and awesome honestly. And so I'd love to deep dive a little bit into each of them. And so, you know, when we start with organizational resistance, I hear you say thinking about? You know what's going on? Is it a good enough idea? But I'd really appreciate it if you could bring us in like, what? What are the

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): steps to really help

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): get, you know, be with organizational resistance. And I would imagine being in sustainability. It's not like one. You're a catalyst. You're gonna hit, you know, organizational resistance. But sustainability is a

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): topic like you said, go change the light bulbs. They can have a special kind of resistance that will will rise up.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): What have you learned like really like? Tactically.

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Renee Henze: So yeah, it's it's a super question. And and again, I I think I've been really fortunate in the organizations that I've worked in and come up through is that they've been very there. There was always been scientific based organizations. So

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Renee Henze: there's data, there's fact. And so it is a group of people who are like, well, show me the data. Show me the fact, and very customer facing what are the customer needs. So when you have data and customer driven needs on your side. It becomes a lot easier to make your case about change, because if you're changing just for change sake, then that's not the right reason to change. That's 1 of the ones that you should just be like.

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Renee Henze: cute idea. But okay, we're

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Renee Henze: we're we're not gonna go there. But the data is telling me that I need to make a change in a product line, or the customer is, you know, I've got

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Renee Henze: 16 Cpg customers who are all asking for shades of this.

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Renee Henze: You know this idea.

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Renee Henze: And

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Renee Henze: so it becomes. It becomes easier to say, maybe not what that change is. But we need to make a change. So get let's let's kinda like balance it out here and say, let's all agree. We hear this. This is what the data the science of the customers are telling us

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Renee Henze: put our hands on the table. We need to make a change. Right? Yes. Okay. So once we get there. Then then you have to manage the ideas and figure out, okay, well, then, what are the ideas to to get us there? Some are bigger, some are smaller.

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Renee Henze: but that to me, that's that's been really that has worked in my favor is to just rely on the data and fact and get everybody to say, Yeah, I see it. Let's go.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love that. And so is a 1st step in, you know, kind of meeting, organizational resistance is getting people on the same page of of acknowledging there's a need for change. So rather than selling them on a sustainability solution. For example, it's okay. Now let's back up

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): what's happening with our customer base.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And let's talk about that. And have you learned anything at that moment? Right? Those moments that are particularly helpful cause I'm I'm tied to hearing you. The word empathy has come up a lot in this conversation, and so I'm imagining it's not a presentation of like. Here's the data, right? So tie to me, you, you know, for me kind of this notion of empathy and meeting people where they're at with data and customer customer needs.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, I mean. And so so within my current organization, we have 4 pretty different and distinct business units. So I have 4 different

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Renee Henze: internal, you know, business unit stakeholders, if you will. And so, yeah, there are some commonalities. So there's commonalities of customer and business unit needs

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Renee Henze: but there, but there's still a lot more differences. And then you layer in the personality differences. So it it's just I mean, I spend my day on the phone talking to people, whether it's my team, other teams. And and you know, in in this particular case that we're talking about is what

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Renee Henze: we've identified the needs.

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Renee Henze: I probably have 15 different possible solutions in my mind, but I need people to

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Renee Henze: come to the table with their solutions before I offer mine, and that's that is a that is a leadership trade. A man.

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Renee Henze: Maybe a catalyst coping mechanism as well.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Renee Henze: So me, as you said, like

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Renee Henze: me, just saying. And here are all the sustainability solutions we should be thinking about. It's what we've all seen. We've all acknowledged that there is

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Renee Henze: a need for change. We're all looking at the same data. What do you think? How do you think we should manage.

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Renee Henze: Because, you know, people need to see themselves. Most people, not all people but met. Most people need to see themselves in the solution or the change, or the go forward actions in order to really fully buy into it.

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Renee Henze: Sometimes you'll get

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Renee Henze: blank stairs.

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Renee Henze: you know an uncomfortable silence.

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Renee Henze: and if that goes on long enough, then you can say, Well, here are some considerations. Here are some things I've thought about. What do you think about that? But it's.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Renee Henze: To be a as much as you can.

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Renee Henze: Let's go together. Bring you along with my idea. Your idea, however, and again, I don't know that that's catalytic versus just good management and and leadership.

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Renee Henze: But because is catalyst, you can overwhelm people if you just jump in with that idea to that idea, anyway, and that's great, and let's give them credit for the idea, like, I don't need credit for the idea. I just. I really don't need credit for the idea. I want my team have credit. I want people who are running the project or the programs to have credit. Let's get it done.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, no, I I love where you brought us that I think that that true listening, that true openness is. It takes time to develop.

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Renee Henze: It absolutely. I was on a I was on a call this morning, and I and I said to my team, I am going to break a rule. I'm going to give you a proposed solution before I ask you. But I I just felt the need, like I had so many things in my mind that I had not said that I had held back. I'm like I just have to let this little one out.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, there's still the catalyst in you. Sometimes it's still. It's still coming from.

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Renee Henze: Absolutely right. You can't

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Renee Henze: ways. I mean, there's a balance, too, right? Because, as executives and as leaders, people do look to you for guidance and solutions and ideas. So as much as I think a lot of an executive or a leader. Whatever you want to characterize role is

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Renee Henze: finding the right people and elevating their ideas and getting the great ideas out of your people. They're not.

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Renee Henze: I don't have great ideas. My people have great ideas, and my superpower is finding the great people and the great ideas that they have not mine.

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Renee Henze: But people do also look to us. I look to my boss every once in a while. I'm like, I don't have a solution. What's your idea?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Right

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): and talk to me about that second one keeping up with market shifts.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): How do we do that, Renee?

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Renee Henze: sometimes. Not really? Well.

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Renee Henze: yeah. Well, I mean, it's again in the sustainability space. It's just been moving and new regulations. And you've got things that are happening in Europe and California. And it's just, you know. All of us are in fields that are just moving at lightning speed for lots of different reasons.

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Renee Henze: And

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Renee Henze: I mean for that, I to me, it is around. It is around prioritization.

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Renee Henze: making sure that we understand what you know, what's important to the organization.

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Renee Henze: not what's important to me, but what's important to the organization, I mean, I didn't. You know I I work for a for profit company. I don't, you know, at this point in my life work for a nonprofit. So I have to keep organizational goals in you know, in in front of me. So so, anyway. So it is prioritization and the market shifting around you and you know. And do you know and I,

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Renee Henze: it's it's counterintuitive to having a good business plan to be shifting your strategy and your plan.

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Renee Henze: and every 2 or 3 months we'd like to have a little bit more time and runway around that. But it does mean that you have to be aware you have to, and I think I'm fortunate that my team, and just by nature myself is we like information. We like to know what's going on in the world. We don't live in a vacuum. We do collect all of this, and whether we can act on it or not, we're at least aware of it.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Renee Henze: Very aware of it.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, that's it's interesting. We Shannon. I did a report a few years back with our catalyst leadership trust, looking at what has changed in thinking about strategy and in strategic planning, especially in the wake of Covid. And, as the, you know, pace of disruption is amplifying in our in our businesses. And so I like your framing of in an ideal world. We're not changing the strategy every 2 to 3 months.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): but you do need to be keeping up on the shifts and considering, do I need to change the strategy? It's not ideal to. But maybe I need to.

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Renee Henze: I mean, and hopefully, you know, in in strategy one is an iterative process. So it does. It is, you know, it is necessary to change. It may not every 2 to 3 months but it but but but to to change it and it. And it's strategy is a series of decisions is what we're going to do. And more importantly, what we're not going to do. But it's not not going to do ever. It's just not going to do now. So, as you know, I mean hopefully, you have a strategy that's

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Renee Henze: broad enough and high level enough that you can capture movements and shifts and market dynamics. So you don't have to change the strategy. But maybe that's the plan or the execution of elements, or the resources or prioritization, or whatever.

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Renee Henze: okay. So things things happen. And so you know you, you do have to shift and change the the strategy fine. But again, hopefully, you've you know you built enough resiliency within the organization? Or you again, are.

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Renee Henze: you know, sufficiently. Yeah, that that you build enough resiliency in the organization that the organization can withstand, you know, shifting a strategy

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Renee Henze: with the with the shifting dynamics.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): One hopes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's such great advice. And it's exactly the reason that we do. This is like, you know, getting real about the challenges that face catalyst and hopefully, like learning from our shared wisdom, so that up and coming catalyst can make new and different better mistakes. I'm wondering if you have some favorite inspirational catalysts that have been high points for you, past or present.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, I you know the one, the one that does come to mind. And it's probably the world that I live in personally and professionally is. I, I think, about the the founder of of Patagonia Yvonne Schwinnard now, and he's probably like, you know.

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Renee Henze: a lot of us may may love him and what he's done. And you know, if you know his story about, you know, basically, these are not my words. These are actually, I think, Rick Ridgeway, who used to work for Patagonia along alongside Yvonne. I heard him speak once, and I think it was him. But anyway, somebody said that you know you're either a company that has your company.

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Renee Henze: Who then has a mission or you're a mission, and you created a company. A lot of it is either in the sustainability or the social responsibility space. And so I love these stories about people like Yvonne, who was being.

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Renee Henze: you know, a rock climber, Shannon. He was a climber right? He's this climber, and he's like, you know, the things that I'm putting into the rocks and the clips, and like it's not sufficient. I'm going to go make my own in a shed outback type of thing.

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Renee Henze: And that's how that company started. But the ethos of giving back the environment, making sure that we have planet and people, you know, forefront. And 1st in our mind has continued.

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Renee Henze: It is a thread through that company, and I feel very fortunate. One of the roles I was in. I was in bio-based materials, and we did bio textiles, so I did have an opportunity to work a bit with Patagonia, and that ethos just permeates through the company to the point where I think it was a couple of years ago. They came out and Yvonne said, I'm going to get this wrong. But he basically said, You know the profits that this company makes are going to go into a trust

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Renee Henze: for the environment, you know, go going forward. It's not going to go to investment groups. And so, you know again, it's just that living, that principle. And you know the ideas and just the forward thinking that he had, and many people around him had to me has always been really like really cool, super cool, super inspirational.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I so totally agree, and like he and and the way that he like built it inside and out, like every ounce of the DNA of that company's existence is like that makes me a little teary.

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Renee Henze: Yeah, I don't know if they still I used to get the Patagonia catalog and hoard it like, oh, because it was stories. They were stories.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Sorry to.

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Renee Henze: I actually, there's a great it's Rick Ridgeway. He talks about storytelling, and I use it in class as an example of great storytelling. And oh, by the way, they show a Patagonia product. But it's all about the environment and why they do what they do and like I, you know I show it. Every semester and every semester I'm like

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Renee Henze: get chills watching it just because it's just so fantastic and like when I had an opportunity to go to the Patagonia headquarters and go and like call on. I was like a nine-year-old. I'm like, Oh, my God! That's so bright.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Okay, there's another thing that you've done. That's on my bucket list, too, Renee. So yeah.

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Renee Henze: Oh, we'll have to find a way. We'll have to make a field trip a field trip. There. It's a it's a really neat space.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Let's do that, Renee. This has been an absolute pleasure.

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Renee Henze: Oh, it's so distinct!

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Grace

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Renee Henze: Much.

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Renee Henze: Thank you for doing what you do

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Renee Henze: in writing your book and and having this podcast and giving people like us, like a home and a name to to kind of, you know. Center in on and again, and reading your book, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Oh, my gosh!

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Renee Henze: Somebody gets it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Well, we feel seen by you, too. So thank you. And to our listening audience. Thank you so much for being on this journey with us. If you'd like to know more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world, make sure to check out our book, move fast, breakship, burnout the one that Renee was just talking about. Or of course, you can go to our website at catalystconations.com dot.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And if you enjoyed this episode the way Shannon and I very much did please take a few seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you have other catalysts in your life, hit the share button and send a link their way.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thanks! Again.