Patrick Vanbrabandt, CEO of Carya Group - From Tech Nerd to People Observer to Successful CEO: Patrick Vanbrabandt on Leading Transformation

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I'm Tracy Lovejoy.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm Shannon, Lucas. We are the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalysts to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): This is our podcast move, fast, break ship burnout where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today we're incredibly excited to invite someone that we've known and gotten to work with for years. Patrick von Brabant, who is an accomplished entrepreneur, a business leader.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): He is currently the CEO of the Carrier group, which is a highly innovative information technology services organization for the automotive dealership market. You can tell me if I missed anything there based out of Belgium but rapidly expanding.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Patrick also founded the nonprofit organization arm part of Caria. The Caria Group cares to apply the company values which we've gotten to learn a lot about, and are so lovely to see them spreading into the social context into society. Really, though, Patrick constantly inspires Shannon and I, with his love of learning.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): which gets exhibited with his love of cars, his love of airplanes, and his love of wonderful adventures, and I already knew I was going to say that, Patrick, before we got to chat with you. And so to add to that, we just learned that Patrick is freshly back from Bozanzibar in Tanzania, which totally proves the point that we are constantly inspired. How you are out in the world exploring, learning, and bringing that knowledge back to everything you do. So thank you for the inspiration.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Thank you. Tracy, thanks.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, as we bring you into the conversation, we would love you to tell us about your career from a catalyst perspective. Right? What are those moments across time that you feel can help us see your catalytic nature.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Well, basically, I would say it started out, all being an extreme nerd. I would say I was

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): not the one going to the discos, but to the one going behind my desktop and and finding out all new tech kinds of technologies. Luckily that evolved quite quickly, because I think through that I learned that that my passion is learning and and connecting dots and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and seeing how people work together, how they achieve things, how they grow, how they live together in any stage, in any context, I would say, that's why like you, said I, quite. I love traveling a lot

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): just to

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): sit in the streets on the side and observe and and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): as you know, I've been many times to Silicon Valley and and La, and and then Florida, and then New York, and and also China and and Singapore, and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the things that I learn are never on the program. They're always by. Observe observation that, you see, hey? They do this that way, or they they work in this way. So from, I think from early on I was always

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): driven to learn about how people work together and achieve things. I think I I

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): on a broader level, on a deeper level. I really love people.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I think that's the the main driver in my my career, I would say.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): And so, even though I started out as a developer making software.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): But even then my goal as the software developer was just learning to

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): to see men a wider range of customers and and see, and many, many different industries.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): And I love seeing, hey? This guy works in that way in this company, and this woman works in that way in that other company, in a totally different sector. Why don't they talk with each other because they can really influence each other? So it was. The initial goal was as a developer.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): try to learn as much as possible from as many industries as possible, but in the end I ended up in the automotive industry predominantly. I would say.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): where I'm still very active as we speak today, very active. The company has grown. Have a lot of catalysts now in the company, so they gave me the time to to for my to follow my passion even, and travel even more, and learn even more. And and if I see what my role now is nowadays is in the company. It's more the inspirator and and the and the the coach, and the teacher.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I'm also more and more becoming the old dude that's my God, he's there! Don't tell him anything, so it's I. I guess it's a good thing if they think about that's like me about.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): But yeah, that's and I, in a long sentence, what I am in. I started out. A developer

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): became.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It's unusual, Patrick, to hear someone who describes themselves as an engineering nerd.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): That then in a moment says they're driven by their love of people.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Did you always know that was that discovered like, how how did that come to be.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Was gradually discovered. I but I would say, because I I loved, I still love technology in all possible ways, and and even in the aviation. I would say, the plane I just bought it's it's basically half. The price of the plane is the technology that's in it. Because I so much love the and it's insane what the capabilities are right nowadays of these planes. But these technologies

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): my love and passion started there. But I I gradually learned that

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): if applied well, they can help people, and in in profound ways. And and we see examples around us all every day all day. I still have to say in most of the companies that I guide is like technology has to work for the people. It's not the other way around, because as developers or

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): sometimes companies, we think that people have to work for the technology. No, no, I learned it has to help the people. And then I.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): That was the 1st stage, and the second stage was more like, how can I help these people best? And then it was gradually realizing I need to be, learn more about in the context where they're working.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): And

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): 1st I started in a company that provides lights to to consumers.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and then the next one was a wood shop company, and then gradually we started on in a mining company, and and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): every single time I discovered so many insights about how people can achieve together stuff.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): And then I saw it was not only technology. It's just how people talk, the the challenges of communicating the, the.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the, the challenges of understanding each other like nowadays. The the world is so much polarized because of

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): all the communication tools we have around us. They're they're they're backfiring like, how, I would say, how can we use them for the better again? So these are the things that I mainly occupy my day nowadays. With how can we bring again that sparkle of of light and hope? And

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): from the bottom up? It's not that we are, because we're a small entrepreneur in a small country that we can't make a difference. It's a

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I think you'll miss, because a year younger than I am. So

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): he did some stuff.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I can see why it's a natural place for you to move into a chief inspiration role, because even just hearing you frame your experience in the set of questions. I know I feel inspired. I don't. We haven't talked anything about my background. I don't know if you know, when my days at Microsoft.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I I was a researcher, and I cannot tell you the number of times that a chief architect, because traditionally, Microsoft is a place that really lauded technology first.st

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And so these amazing engineering minds would create these technologies

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): that had no audience. And so they would literally bring me in on special projects and be like Tracy. Can you essentially justify why we might be able to leverage this? Is there an audience that might be able to use this. And so I just love how much you're helping ground us of that for you. The catalytic energy coming out of engineering was.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): how can I help people. And then how can people come together to solve that? It's just it's so beautiful.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Yes, and again, what you say is very relevant, and also

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): for me very, very practical, because it's I. I left through these experience. Again and again. I, when I was a young developer, I made some phenomenal software products that nobody could use. I mean.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): they were brilliant, say they were object oriented and inheritance, and all methods, and and oh, brilliant, brilliant! And then I showed it to the, to the customer, and he was like, Wow! That's insanely impressive. And can you now show me my product? Okay.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Right.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Show me something I can use.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Oh, humility! I love it so. We have been talking around it, but would love to hear from you in your own words. How do you relate to the concept of catalyst.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Well, for me it was like an epiphany. I think that's the word I would say, because for many years I've struggled with with

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the many challenges I had. I I thought of myself as being a really bad communicator

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): sometimes thinking because I what I said didn't resonate. Am I so stupid, I mean, is there is there something loose in my head, or something? And then also this, this

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I see solutions.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and I was so frustrated that I have a lot of people who see problems. And I was like, how? How is it possible not to see a solution, but also but see the problem straight away.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): And then it was also very frustrating for me to to bring these people into

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the solution that I that I envisioned, I would say.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and also I'm a very bad finisher. I I have, I see, a solution, I I

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and I consider it almost solved, except the thing doesn't exist yet, because

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): so I'm already moved on to the next stage and next stage the next thing. So when I stumbled upon the this book of that, you, both of you, brilliantly, brilliantly authored.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): It was for me an epiphany that finally I had a name to put on top of it.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Hey? I'm a catalyst.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): And it's okay that you have these issues, the that you can burn out. It's not that you're that dumb.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): You're not that bad of a communicator. You're not

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): special. It's why you're special in a way. But but it's okay to be special

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): And also it provided me quite a lot of context and solutions predominantly on how I can address these issues.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): So

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): from there on advance, I I would say not incremental. But it was a big big help first.st The relief, I would say, was really a sense of relief that I 1st

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): hats where I said off.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): It is a thing it's not. It's not just me. And then

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): applying these methodologies and and learning from the book has helped me great tremendously, and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and and bringing in a

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): also the the realization.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): That's if I'm not alone. Probably there must be other ones there as well. And are they far away like black holes in the galaxy always love the fact that they were looking for black holes. And there's just one close by. There is one rather close by. It's far away, but still. You find them in the most

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I would say surprising places. And that's the second phase that I that I think that that you

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): but both of you really helped in identifying them in our company, that even within our organization there are also some catalysts which I didn't expect some of them. You know.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): this person has has the ability to, but some were really, some of them were really surprising.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and with all of them

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): resulted in in

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): quite similar levels of catalysts. I would say, even till this day we actually made a whole structure about it, where we we have a catalyst program in our company. It helps that. I'm the boss.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): So that definitely helps. And I have a partner in crime. And together we have 2 thirds of the company who says, Whatever I I want to do, do it because you're always right and he says I'm a great predictor of the future. I said, if that were true, I would play on the on the lottery, of course, but

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): So this this allowed us to to start up this exercise, where we we grouped a bunch of people in our company and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): gave them

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): quite honestly

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): unlimited resources. I would say, well, not unlimited resources. No oversight, almost.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I said. It's it's well, because that is something that I saw as a catalyst myself. It's great that you're special, and that you see solutions, and that you're bad in communication, and that you have to breadcrumb and stuff. But for me the proof is in the eating of the pudding. I think it's it. So

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): that was also something that I saw in my professional career when I started delivering results

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): instead of talking about it.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): doing something with it

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): that it's where it's where you, where you

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): feel the responsibility. I would say that

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): that that you felt as a given in the past. Now you. You take it as a pride point, and you see it in the people that we we formed in our company as catalysts.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): They don't have oversight, but they feel the responsibility tremendously.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and, like you, we know we have earned distrust. We will not shame it so, and that's why we let them loose on whatever project they want to do.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): how they want to achieve it.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): We.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): We have our touch points where we

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): try to

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): challenges sometimes, or where we disagree sometimes.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and yes, sometimes I have the final say, but

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): it's it's I can't remember one example where I applied it. It's more than

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): it's more the experience that I sometimes bring to the table because some of them are really young.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): That's also something that I find really fascinating, either isn't

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the A. They're they're all over the place regarding Hsa. There.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): there's young people in that group. There's older people in that group. I have to be mindful of what I say now.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Experienced experienced people.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Boss.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, yeah.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): But the young ones fire up the the older ones, the more experienced ones. So it's

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): So it has been a journey, but it has been a very, very great journey it has without. And it's not because I'm with you in this. Podcast but

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I was thinking about it when I was on holiday. And

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): what are the things that made me proud proud in in life? Because I I

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): off topic. I got reception of the plane you're flying the plane home. There's the fire trucks with the water hoses welcoming you at the at the at the airport.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and I felt this

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): true sense of of

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): proud pride, of being

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): something like Wow! I achieved something that I dreamed dreamt of for the whole, my whole life. And now it's here, and it was difficult, and we did it, and it's a it was a rare sense of pride that I encountered, and I feel the same sense of pride when I talk. Think about that, that catalyst group in my company.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): They have

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): helps the company, grow tremendously every month. Now we have budgets in our company.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and for for once it's great, because we are outperforming the budgets every single month.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and I'm not there.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): which is even better so. No, I think

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): when I think of every single one of them, I'm like

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): extremely proud of of that. I helped them get to that level.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's been I mean, A. We are just so grateful to have been on part of this journey with you, and I think, like what you embody as a leader and have built into your culture is something that Melanie, from the catalyst Leadership Trust says often, which is like the empowerment

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: plus accountability equals the results.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But I also love part of what you're you're talking about, because with catalysts you're like they hold themselves accountable, which is not that you don't have some structures, and we love Evelyn also, and obviously Anna Lee's 2 of the people who are your Co. Conspirators in the in the catalyst, you know, program management.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: but it the culture that you've built. And also, you know, people should know, like you've you've spent years also thinking about, you know, self managed teams, and just that beautiful accountability and and empowerment that has hopefully contributed sounds like contributed to part of the success.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm curious, Patrick, like from the genesis, from what maybe your 1st thought was about the problems or yeah challenges that either you or the company were facing as you were like. Well, let's activate these catalysts to tackle those problems.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: What were the original thoughts? And maybe has that pivoted? And and what have you unlocked.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): The original thoughts were were always as as it is in every company. How can we do more with with the same people, and and more efficiently, and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): but then it started to pivoting like. Sometimes we we as a company, don't know what is good for us here, but the people who work in the company. They do know what they have great ideas. So

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I think initially, we were more like heads down and say, Okay, we'll put them on that project and that project and that project, and it took us a while for us to say, Hey, let's let let's let loose of that. Let's just empower them and trust in them. And something that total wolf once, said the the team manager of the Mercedes formula. One team.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): he said, my people do the victories, I do the the the mistakes, and it it for me that I tried to do the same. Convey the same thing to these teams like failure is an option.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): We are sometimes so blocked and and held hostage by that feeling that we, my God! If we fail, everything will go come crashing down. That is something that I also worked on to to implement

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): to create a safe haven. So when we 1st thought, What will we do with the catalyst? We said, these are these projects. Then we said, Let's let them loose, but also create a safe environment where they they are accountable, but they can experiment, and if they fail, it is okay.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): As long as they don't bankrupt the company. But so far so good. It's like.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): no, no, it's so I think these were crucial elements, and and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): getting where we are today.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. And I, I mean, I really, I really, wanna like, I've really gotten a sense of that like this, the sense of psychological safety that you guys had already, I think, like really, intentionally built into the community. But the pivot to they, you know. I remember some of the projects. It was like, Oh, there's some differences going on in the different offices. And when this group across the silos got together.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: they were like, here's some opportunities for efficiencies that might have been harder to, you know, to identify from the top down.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): It is a collection of yes, we can people. It is

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and and they don't care too much about silos. And

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): of course we encourage, encourage that also with some team building. But

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): but the main thing is they are. They don't accept the given as an answer. They just go for challenging the the established, I would say, and and because if you're doing again and again and again the same thing over and over and over again, while you're growing tremendously.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Something's very wrong.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: there's another interesting point which is so many companies. You started out saying, like, when we were thinking about this, it was like operational efficiency. How do we do more with less?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And it's funny, because when most people hear that they're like, Oh, that leads to burnout of our people, which in in general I wouldn't dispute.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But what's interesting watching you guys identify this group of catalysts is catalysts are so excited to drive the impact

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: that even if it's a little bit in addition to their day job getting the kind of support and space and empowerment that you guys have given them is often the thing that will keep them engaged. And there for a longer time. And I'm just wondering, like, have you seen, with all of the changes, how that's related to sort of employee engagement and and retention and things like that.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Absolutely. i i i

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I think burnouts.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I'm I'm getting on some ice here, I guess, but burnout is when people feel they can't make a difference anymore, and stuck in a pattern.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and that is totally the opposite of what a catalyst is achieving. I would say they.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): they they are built to, to implement, change, to to drive, change, to, to be the instigator of change. And I think that's the best

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): medicine, I would say true for for burnout.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Of course you have the day to day the day to day, or the shit of yesterday business, of course. But

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): yeah.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): you can handle that more

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the the shit of yesterday. If you have a a perspective on the future, I would say, then you you make better decisions and better solutions to stuff that keeps following you.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): so no, yeah, absolutely. I think it's the best medicine against

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): yeah. Getting burned out. On the other hand.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): definitely not. Everybody has a catalyst thing. It's and I I saw it like I said I. I am very active in the automotive industry. I. I visited many of these factories, where I was privileged enough to walk among the the how do you call it? The the conveyor belts where they constructed cars.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): They were happy people.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): they were not robots, they were also really happy people, but they love seeing instant

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): satisfaction of doing something. Are they? Put that door on that car? Look the doors on that car, and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): yeah, very happy for it. A friend of mine has a a stunning chocolate factory here in Belgium the best chocolates honestly and I went to visit the company, and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): so much of that production is man manual labor.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and it struck me that all of them were laughing

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): big smiles on their faces. I was like, what is wrong here, I mean

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the whole day of.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Patrick's like. I can't imagine doing the same thing more than 5 times like, how can you be happy.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): But they were, but they were driven by this purpose of delivering insanely good chocolates and and throughout the world, and and they really believed in that purpose.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and Isabel did a great, great job conveying that story again and again and again.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): That's the thing I mean. You. You have the catalyst, and you have the leaders, but you also. You need the people

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): to help do this stuff. Of course.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): The implementation to your point that you thought you had the idea done

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): and none of it had been built right like we. We have to move that. Alright. I have a I have a follow up question for you. I've heard so many peaking things. One thing was

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): especially in a changing world. If we're doing the same thing as you scale, something's wrong.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): but we also have to be taking care of yesterday's business.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): How do you, as the head of a highly functioning organization.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): How do you steer people through transformation

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): without disrupting the existing business?

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I have a very bad reputation on that, I would say, because

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Used to implement

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): decisions overnight.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): So wasn't the 1st time that I changed the support desk system

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): in the weekend. So people left on Friday evening, and on Monday morning found a totally new system that they had to use without any training, without any data in it. And then but it was way better. Yeah. And also the Flats organization that I implemented was like, I implemented it. I communicated it to the company on the day that I had to go to an event of one of our customers.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): so met met the conversation which was going really, really, really bad. I I left

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I wasn't sure that there was a company when I returned, because that that one went really, really bad.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and actually visited local by Loch Zappos in Las Vegas shortly after that.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and I saw that the pain was shared. I mean, they also had a huge, huge amount

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): issues and and sorry physical pain almost in implementing this. But sometimes I I'm I need to be firm. I remember

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): my my implementation of flat organization was an example done too fast and not well.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): But I I set out that I'm not going to change course. It might, the course might.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Change a little bit. But this is the way that I'm going, because I believe in the people. I don't believe in the managers. I believe in the people doing the things, and that they know best. They need to be helped and and tutored and coached and and empowered to do stuff

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): which is kind of a challenge. But I remember 2 months or 3 months in

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I mean the we don't have unions, but if you had unions, I mean, they would have stopped everything, and every week we have a staff meeting.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): especially at that time. And I just told him I said, look

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): to the whole company.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Flat organizations fail for 2 reasons. The customers start

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): complaining too much and say.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Stop like what you're doing. Go back to the the old thing or the CEO doesn't believe in it.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Well, I can guarantee you.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): You have to either kill me or replace me, and it's difficult, because I have a majority share.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and the

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): or you have to set up all the customers against us. It's your choice.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): But this is the way that we're and I what I saw, and on the many faces that day was

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): some people

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): dropping their shoulders.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): but also a lot of people

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): getting a sense of relief like saying, this is the final reconfirmation. This is the direction that we're taking, and we might like it or not. We better work on it that we're going to like it.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): because this guy is not going to change it. So sometimes.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): I I was too fast and too furious in my decisions and in my.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): but nowadays we are much more careful. We are breadcrumbing, and we are working on on convincing, convincing people.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): And I had the discussion recently with with a couple of the catalysts. We do basically all these

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): maybe just

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): rented a truck and drove drove through the shop.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): You do miss them, or you don't.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): We do?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): You do. What is it you, miss, about that? I'm so curious.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the time to to con. I know the time to convince the people because you

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): you create a lot of aggravation and and renting a truck and driving through a shop. Of course it is a lot less if you start breadcrumbing and start convincing people of the of the values of it.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): But we missed the gorilla style we had. We missed the cowboys. We used to have a pirate flag in our office.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and that's that one's gone as well, and I'm like, you know.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): sometimes it would be fun just to just do it.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): yeah, that can be such a drive for us. Right? Of just.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Get it done.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): We were like 2030 people then. Now it's 200 people. It's it's small by us standards. But still it's a.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It's big.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): It's quite a lot of people to convince to

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): to go in a certain direction.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Well, it sounds like such.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I'm sorry I didn't mean to cut you off.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Yeah, we. We are now expanding throughout Europe because, we feel, that is extremely important for the and that for the company. And it's also a message. It's like, if we don't do it, we'll fail. We'll go bankrupt. But you can't. I? I tell it like that. But people in my company know me nowadays.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and that I don't shoot. I shouldn't tell that on a Friday afternoon on a staff meeting.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): but but they understand nowadays, because when I tell stuff like that, it's because I've already seen the solution that I've already seen the the future. And so they're like, Okay, we'll go bankrupt.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Fine, skip that part, go to the solution part and tell us what we should do.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and that's the other thing that I do a lot of the time just telling the same story again again. Why are we doing this? Why are we going to that country? What's the the in it for us? What's the advantage for the customer? Especially? It's actually the 2 axis where I talk the most about what will be, what change will we make for the customer. And what change will we make for the employees locally.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): that we that we either acquired or start hiring, which is also insane? We with these acquisitions, we, we stumble upon totally new cultures. And and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and I must say we are quite the

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): the challenging one. People

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): that we acquire often used to have the like, the top, the sites, and we we do what we're told. And now they're suddenly

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): somebody saying, Hey, you know best you've been there, you know the customer. You tell me what we should do, and they're like, oh.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): we're not allowed to do that. Yes, you are allowed. And then so, but we see gradually that we that we do that more and more proficiently in the, in these other cultures as well. And we actually now are

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): working on making making this switch

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): more profound instantly, like we just acquired another company.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and we could stay in the same office, and the management could stay. And and I said, No.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): clean start

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): instantly. A new office, a far better looking office

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): more expensive office. But I think it's so much more important that it's that it's far more better looking people will feel. Hey, this is different. This is this is a new vibe,

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Management

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): were not taken over.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and I'm like, No, thank you. We'll do ourselves. So

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): yeah. And it's it's great when you see, call other cultures can be enriching. But they can also be, I would say it's a.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It's you know. The place you and I started is I got talked a little bit about your your bio, and you brought it in is that you're a learner, and it's so fun to get to hear throughout history those 2 seeds of the engineering problem solving you and the person who loves to observe and loves people. And that's what I hear at each stage is, get, you know, being clear on the problems that there are to solve and what the vision is.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): and then thinking about the people involved, and how you have to keep iterating because you are at a different size. And it's a different group of people. And there's different cultural realities.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And you have learned to flex and learned where your you know not strengths were and be able to grow yourself or bring others in. It's really beautiful. Thank you. I haven't gotten to hear this this story in this much detail. I really appreciate it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I would just add, I just really really appreciate your commitment to this, empower this empowerment. And yeah, I think that's the best word for it. And even as you're encountering

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: new cultures, new ways, it would be so easy for most people to be like. Oh, the easy path is to go the way that everyone has always worked.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But you're like, no, I'm so committed to this like you're gonna have to kick me out or kill me. This is how committed I am to it. And then, thinking, like Tracy, said intentionally about what that means in terms of bringing new people along, I just it's such a great model, Patrick. Thank you for embodying that and sharing that with us.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Thank you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: All right. Fun. Question time.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Huh!

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Who's your favorite famous catalyst, past or present? And why.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Well on the top of my head. I have to say Snoop Doc, of course, especially with the great contribution that he did in Paris with the Olympics. But

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): if you get into the story of this guy, it is insane and on all levels, on humanity, level, on business level, on, of course, on music level, of course, but

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): for me. He's like the epitome of of being the odd one out

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): that has so much in it looks like he now, in the Olympic games.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): brought together so many joy and people, and and

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): and enthusiasm about about the sports. 

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): so I think on many levels he's been

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): very inspirational to a lot of people, but I think he's a true catalyst in that. He

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): he also gets frustrated, I guess, on on not getting the point across sometimes, but he has become an insanely great communicator.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's probably unexpected for most of our listeners, and I would say you're a rebel in your world to Patrick. So thank you for that fun one. Thank you so much as always for this amazing conversation. I mean Tracy and I legitimately learned something from you every time we talk. So we're grateful for your wisdom.

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): Oh, same year, always

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Patrick Vanbrabandt (Carya): when I I get more energy. I was a little bit tired. I had a long day today, but now I'm full full with new energy now. So.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Love, to thank you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: To our listeners. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out our book, move fast, break, shit, burn out, or go to our website at catalyst constellations.com.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And if you enjoyed this episode as much as Shannon and I both have, please take the 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher wherever it is that you listen to your podcasts and shit, send a share link to the other catalyst in your life, because that's how we learn about who we are.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thanks! Again.

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