Nezha Aloui, CEO of Women Choice: Vision and Impact: A Path to Global Empowerment for Women

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon, Lucas, and I'm the co-CEO of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalysts to create bold, powerful change in the world. This is our podcast move, fast, break ship burnout where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in the world. Today, today, I'm very excited to have Nisha Aloui with us. She's a global advocate for women's empowerment

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: entrepreneur, an author, a speaker, an impact influencer with a community of 3 million people on social media. She's also the CEO of Women's Choice, a New York based organization working closely with fortune, 500 companies, institutions and governments and advancing diversity. Women's choice has supported over 25,000 women executives worldwide, and they collaborate with Neza on the initiatives and campaigns

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: she implements. She was recently highlighted in Mastercard's legacy book among 25 most visionary global women. And as an author she's written and published be a leader, a book on the 12 fundamental values of leadership. Welcome! So glad to have you here today.

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Nezha Alaoui: Hello, Shannon, so great to have you, and feeling that I'm part of the catalyst constellations movement.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And so we're thrilled to have you all right. So I read a quick piece of your bio. But we'd love to hear in your own words, your catalytic journey, maybe sharing a few career highlights that you're proud of, that also help us see your catalytic nature.

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Nezha Alaoui: Sure. Well, I call myself a social entrepreneur above anything, because I worked for the United Nations for 2 years, where I've built my expertise into working and developing social programs

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Nezha Alaoui: and then decided to launch my own organization, which is not a nonprofit organization. So I do have nonprofit organization that runs some programs in Morocco. But women choice is an organization that works with the private sector. The the government institutions, you know, like in the middle as as a bridge cannot be a nonprofit, because

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Nezha Alaoui: it would have to be located and focused in one specific country. When you have that global ambition. You need to be set as a company, and then that gives you that agility to be able to work in with the different entities.

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Nezha Alaoui: But our focus is fully on women's empowerment. We have a social impact kpis. So so we have the DNA of a nonprofit. But we are structured in a startup model, to have that agility, to be able to to scale and grow. And at the end of the day the goal is to create that impact. So so

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Nezha Alaoui: you need to take yourself out of a box that can limit you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: How did you end up focusing on this? Obviously, there's a lot of need. But it sounds like you built something from the ground up like. Tell me a little bit about the spark, and then the process. Yes.

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Nezha Alaoui: So today I was at a meeting at the Apple office here in Dubai, and the question that came was like, Do you find it hard to be running this program now, and I always smile when I get asked that question, because when I started 13 years ago hell! That was hard. You know, there was nothing such as a Diversity and inclusion department. There was nothing as corporate

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Nezha Alaoui: responsibility departments, and and it was, you know, the private sector was focused on generating revenues.

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Nezha Alaoui: and then you had those institutions like the United Nations and others that were doing their work. But there was no bridge between them.

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Nezha Alaoui: So, so on. How how did I start doing this? So back, then, in 2,013, 2,014,

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Nezha Alaoui: after having worked for the United Nations. I really understood the importance of women within society, because when I worked on some projects in underserved communities in Haiti, in Africa, I would see how these women, when you empower them economically, are always giving back to their community. They will spend their money taking care of their elder

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Nezha Alaoui: family, members, of educating their children, of vaccinating their kids.

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Nezha Alaoui: of having the capacity to move out from gender-based violence situation. So the economic empowerment of women not only is crucial if you want to empower women, but on top of it, you know, the effect is like, empower economically one women, and you will see her

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Nezha Alaoui: empower like her whole village, you know, and and we all have our village somewhere in the world, you know, I worked with women in New York, and and that's what we have as women is we? You know that the money will go back to her family and to her community.

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Nezha Alaoui: So so for me it was. It was just, you know, like a very simple and and obvious equation. And you're not by empowering women. You're not

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Nezha Alaoui: dividing or not, you know, like empowering men. You are working on the matters of the next generations. And also when I was in New York, I was really saying that women are mothers of the next generation, and doesn't mean that they have a child at home.

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Nezha Alaoui: They are the mentors. They are the catalyst of, you know, like society. So. So

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Nezha Alaoui: I had that clear vision because I was blessed to be able to see it on the field. And I came back just thinking, Okay, this is. This is where I'm going to focus. And we need to work with corporations, governments, and institutions to be able to do it. And then, in 2015. There was the Sustainable Development Goals with the agenda, 2030 that came out.

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Nezha Alaoui: There were other initiatives like that before, you know, at the United Nations that didn't really go through. But this one was unique because it had that same vision of involving the private public sector. So yes, so I was one of the 1st one to to really

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Nezha Alaoui: embed myself in that strategy, be active in New York at the United Nations, and so on, and start.

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Nezha Alaoui: go and knocking at the doors of these big corporations, pitching them. What we're doing today with much more, you know, like easiness. But but even back then we would, you know, build pilots that sometimes were self financed, and and find ways as long as

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Nezha Alaoui: as I was finding myself to to able to pay myself and my teams, not not even

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Nezha Alaoui: on a project base. But you know, like on a yearly base, you know, that we're not dying. We're continuing to build ourselves just like a lot of startups that, for instance, are building a community, and so on, and bootstrapping to get there. So so I was kind of bootstrapping myself my way up, and then, of course, with over the years, you know, the the doors were opening more and more in that sense.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing. Okay. So for me, that definitely sounds like you're a catalyst. But I would love to understand how you relate to the concept of catalyst, and how that supported you on this amazing journey.

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Nezha Alaoui: Thank you. Sorry if you can just repeat the question. Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Totally.

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Nezha Alaoui: And a little. Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, I was going to say it sounds to me like you're definitely a catalyst, in my opinion. But I'm wondering how you relate to the concept of catalyst, and maybe how that supported you on this amazing journey.

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Nezha Alaoui: Well, definitely, I do consider myself a catalyst and a catalyst is. It's a mindset, you know. It's that mindset of creating change while embarking others with you.

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Nezha Alaoui: And so the partnership component, which is an important piece in what I'm achieving today, was always very present in my way of doing things. Okay? So you start small. But you are not small. If you have that ability to think of. Okay, I can be part of something greater. I can embark with me some some bigger people. And so, yeah, so I always.

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Nezha Alaoui: I always had that spirit, because

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Nezha Alaoui: because

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Nezha Alaoui: because I would say initially, out of my generosity. I don't like to walk alone, I like, you know, like to be surrounded by others. I think it's much more fun if we're trying to do it, but it takes a leader, you know, at the beginning of it, you know, it takes a leader to do the hard work, because.

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Nezha Alaoui: putting just take the example of I don't know. Creating a conference, you know, and bringing the top people all in the same room and having a conversation. But someone needs to find the venue to, you know. Invite everyone to get the budget to get this to get that. So that's the leadership part of a catalyst.

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Nezha Alaoui: And and I think we can all do it. We can all, if we're ready to do the hard work of being that one person that gathers everyone around that change that we want to create.

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Nezha Alaoui: then everyone can do it. But most often

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Nezha Alaoui: people don't want to be the one doing the hard work. Everyone wants to come as a speaker. Everyone loves being not like a guest, but having to do the hard work of

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Nezha Alaoui: Initiating the initiative is not given to everyone.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: When you look back through your life, do you see other catalytic things that you've done like where the research is like? Is it nature or nurture like. What are there early examples of you being a catalyst in your life?

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Nezha Alaoui: Yes, at a very, very early age. I remember myself at the age of 7 years old we lived in Morocco. I grew up in the capital of Morocco. I was going to a private French school, and on the weekends my father worked at the Government, but he had a passion of agriculture. So we had a farm, and I was spending my weekends

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Nezha Alaoui: playing in our farm with the children of, you know, underserved communities that were working. You know, the parents were working in the farm at more, you know, like of a lower stage.

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Nezha Alaoui: And and so here I was, you know, playing with these kids, and already realizing that I have an education that they don't have access to. So I would spend my weekends teaching them what I have learned over the week.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Wow!

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Nezha Alaoui: And

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Nezha Alaoui: so so you get the thing it's really like. It's a spirit, you know. It's when you have it, you have it, and you don't need to have millions, you know, to share with others anything, experience and knowledge, anything is something that you can share with others and and help them grow.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's such a cool example. Thanks for sharing that I want to pick apart, because what you talk about is like the public private partnerships, the intersection of like the institutions, the government and business.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Those are all very unique cultures with different speeds and different languages. And I'm wondering if you have advice, and I think for society. It's critical, like your point to the Sdgs that we're bringing everyone to the table so that we can bring everyone along on the journey. So I'm just wondering. Sounds like you might have some superpowers around convening those. What can you share with us?

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Nezha Alaoui: Yeah. So it really took me 10 years of experience to crack the code with each one. And and I think it's very important to approach it with a lot of humility and not to get stubborn in thinking. Okay, but they're wrong. They should be doing these things with us and everything. You're stating the obvious there, of course, you know, like in an ideal world.

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Nezha Alaoui: they would be collaborating, and they would be collaborating with amazing smaller startups organizations that have much more innovation to bring, much more passion. But you have to look at them as a little bit a victim of their own system. They have their own pressures, and they have their own reality that makes them not able to opt into a collaboration in the way you have designed it.

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Nezha Alaoui: And so.

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Nezha Alaoui: But then you need to really take advices from them and explain to them. Look, I understand

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Nezha Alaoui: the way you know, I've structured. The collaboration right now is not, you know, like a good deal for you, because there are processes and so on.

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Nezha Alaoui: But you tell me

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Nezha Alaoui: how in a you know better option. Could we ever collaborate? And you have experts there? You know they know their system. Okay, they're not the entrepreneur that you are. They are employees. So they're not competing with you, and but learn from their expertise and put them in that situation where I'm not just asking. And and if you say no, then, okay, it's the end of it. It's

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Nezha Alaoui: I really think that there is a space for us to collaborate.

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Nezha Alaoui: And and my big question is, how do you think we can collaborate?

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Nezha Alaoui: And so so that's 1 thing. That's 1 thing that I don't see a lot of entrepreneurs do. And they miss on that collaboration. The other point that I speak a lot about is

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Nezha Alaoui: a lot

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Nezha Alaoui: of entrepreneurs feel intimidated by these big structures, so they don't even try to collaborate with them because they think, Oh, my God! It's never going to happen! And so on. And you have to understand that over the past 10 years things have changed tremendously that now these big corporations, these governments, institutions, are open to

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Nezha Alaoui: build on collaborations with small small entity, where they would have never thought of ever collaborating with, you know, like in another world.

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Nezha Alaoui: And so so they are keen and open for for that type of collaboration

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Nezha Alaoui: contact them on Linkedin, contact them by email. Be very concise and precise on what you want from them, and don't scare them, you know. Don't you know? Like, ask them for, for the big thing you know.

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Nezha Alaoui: Talk about, you know, like building synergies. These are terms that are not scaries, because also they have so many processes that just if you're telling them okay, I want to meet you for this reason and that reason, if they just write to you an email saying, Yes, it's it's an email that you can take to court and say, Yeah, but they said, Yes, you know, like to this. So make sure that that outreach email is really built on on.

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Nezha Alaoui: you know, synergies and everything is gonna be

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Nezha Alaoui: discussed over an open conversation.

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Nezha Alaoui: So so yeah, so these are the 3. Don't be intimidated, and and you know, aim for it. Don't scare them. And then, once you're there.

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Nezha Alaoui: really learn, that person knows the culture of of the company of the the government. And even though okay, these big corporations have a certain model.

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Nezha Alaoui: and the governments have a certain model, and so are the institutions. But within those big companies it's so different from one to another. And so every time you go in, okay, you know that they have processes. Don't go to negotiate something today, for like 3 weeks from now, you know.

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Nezha Alaoui: have these conversations in September telling them, look, I would love to do something with you in 2025, like in the next year, and then he understand that I'm dealing with someone who understands us.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Let's.

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Nezha Alaoui: The problem with entrepreneurs is that they they come out as non professional. You know. They think, you know, that things can happen overnight. They think, you know, that

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Nezha Alaoui: that these people, you know, like have like a magic wand, and they can. They have the power to turn things overnight. No, they don't have. You know that power. They have less power than an entrepreneur. So you need to understand that and and deal with it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I just have to call out, it seems like you've created an amazing network of mentors to help some of the social entrepreneurs, because to your point, if you've never worked in a large organization or government, even as you hear the very sage wisdom that you just said, it's another thing to actually understand the depth of complexity and potentially the slowness or the different speeds. So I think it's amazing that you're bringing out mentors to help social entrepreneurs with that.

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Nezha Alaoui: Exactly. So. So the thing is, yeah. So we have several programs that we run with these different companies. But there is one that is very dear to my heart. It's called impact her. And it's in partnership with the mastercard and a woman leader that is a catalyst that that supports that program.

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Nezha Alaoui: And so I built that program by going to UN women and telling them, look 13 years forward, after having worked with the United nations.

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Nezha Alaoui: I just realized that the United Nations is competing with women, social entrepreneurs, because what happens is the United Nations will act on like very low income

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Nezha Alaoui: beneficiaries. Okay, then, you have the social entrepreneurs that are educated people that went to top universities and that want to have their own impact.

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Nezha Alaoui: And here they are completely not supported by the big institutions. The big institutions are doing the same work than them. They're smaller, and these and they don't have the structure and so on. So I said, we really should build a program that will

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Nezha Alaoui: help these women. Social entrepreneurs be able to each build a program to impact a thousand women, and so on.

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Nezha Alaoui: So through these conversations with UN women, I started building the program

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Nezha Alaoui: also, looking into them. You know their their own kind of like restriction of what does impact look looks like. And for them, okay, if you're saying that these women are going to impact a thousand women, it's not by inspiring a thousand women. It needs to be revenue generation employment revenue generation. If you're helping them to become micro entrepreneurs, then you need to to show that you're helping them get

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Nezha Alaoui: generate revenues of a minimum of $300 for at least

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Nezha Alaoui: 3 years, and so on. So these conversations were good because it gave me the tough kind of like spectrum of like what I need to be able to achieve in this program for it to be

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Nezha Alaoui: recognized by the big guys. Okay?

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Nezha Alaoui: And and then

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Nezha Alaoui: I started working with these women social entrepreneurs by going and getting a sponsorship for it. Okay, it starts with the pilot. Same thing, you know, when I went to Mastercard and I met with Amna, I didn't tell her. Yes, please. Finance, you know, like the rest of my life, you know, like, in this program, it's okay. Can you help me? Finance? You know the incubation of the program with the pilot of a 1st cohort

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Nezha Alaoui: and

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Nezha Alaoui: and and that's how we started. So you need to be able to start small, even if you have a big vision. And then, after, you know, like we did it, we had the 1st cohort graduate. We report we had the report we had this, and that's when I asked for phase 2. And

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Nezha Alaoui: but what I wanted to say is that these women social entrepreneurs, what I have been seeing in all of them, and where we really help them, being more concise is that they all come with an amazing vision.

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Nezha Alaoui: And and so when they try to go and get funding, they they share their vision. But no one is going to fund a vision. They will found a program. What is the program that I'm going to fund? How long does the program run. What is the impact?

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Nezha Alaoui: So

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Nezha Alaoui: so if you break down your big vision, which is women, choice is a very big vision. You know we have. We have announced that we want to impact 1 million women, you know, across Mina region by 2030. And so it's not

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Nezha Alaoui: that I am

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Nezha Alaoui: scaling down my ambition. But how do you impact 1 million women? It's not one player that is going to pay for all of it. You break it down into many, many programs, you build many, many partnerships.

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Nezha Alaoui: So

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Nezha Alaoui: so today, we're we're running 6 programs at the same time. And each one of this program, one is impacting 10,000 women until 2030. The other one, you know, like, is a hundred 1,000, another one. Now we got to one

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Nezha Alaoui: with the Telco in Africa that should have a reach of 1 million just on its own, because the Telco has the reach of that 1 million women that we want to so.

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Nezha Alaoui: But it didn't start like that. You know. You need to have the big vision narrow it down, start somewhere, and then that one thing leads you to another one, and maybe by 2030, with all the programs that we have developed will end up empowering 10 million women.

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Nezha Alaoui: So but you need, you understand, to to it's

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Nezha Alaoui: it needs to start. It needs to start small and and and

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Nezha Alaoui: yeah, to have your proof of concepts.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's so important in our class. The whole 1st week is talking about getting clear on your vision, and we talk about like, if you have sort of murky intentions. You're going to get murky outcomes. But for catalysts, even though we can see our vision sometimes, it can be really hard for us to get down to the brass tacks like you're saying, like, I loved the clarity of $300 a year for 3 years, impacting this. Many women.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Do you have advice for people who are just like I have this big vision about what I want to change in the world and how to get it down to. Here's the 1st step or the 1st vision that I'm going to actuate.

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Nezha Alaoui: Yes, so so 1st of all,

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Nezha Alaoui: people defend their big vision because they think that when you ask them to be more pragmatic.

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Nezha Alaoui: they? You're asking them to give up on their big vision. And I'm the leading example of

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Nezha Alaoui: I never gave up on my big vision. And I had my big vision 13 years ago, where it was so hard to be in this space of what I'm trying to do.

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Nezha Alaoui: But

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Nezha Alaoui: But you need when you're speaking to.

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Nezha Alaoui: because at the end of the day you need, you need to get the money. You need to get the partnerships to be able to achieve any piece of that vision. So so and if someone wants to pay 1% of your vision.

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Nezha Alaoui: you need to structure it.

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Nezha Alaoui: We do know, like, okay.

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Nezha Alaoui: what is that one person looks like? And how do I deliver it?

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Nezha Alaoui: And and you have to understand that a hundred times 1% is a hundred percent

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Nezha Alaoui: 100 times 0%.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Right.

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Nezha Alaoui: Is taking anywhere. So you need to achieve that 1%. If you achieve that, 1% to learn from it. And then you scale from there, and it really took me a long time to get there as well. Okay, because

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Nezha Alaoui: because it's not easy. And we need to understand in the conscious and subconscious of these visionaries

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Nezha Alaoui: where there is that fear to give up on that big dream

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Nezha Alaoui: bad.

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Nezha Alaoui: But it's not about giving up on that big dream. It's just structuring things and and being okay with someone paying 1%, you know. And it's not like, I'm going to find that, you know, like partner that is going to pay 100% of my vision or nothing.

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Nezha Alaoui: Well, the risks are that it's going to be nothing for a long time. So you need to be okay with 1%, you need to be okay with 2%. And and then

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Nezha Alaoui: guess what? Once you have 5 partners that are, you know, giving you like 2%, 3%, this that you might find the partner that will give you 50% after. And the partner that will give you a hundred percent. But it needs to start somewhere. It doesn't mean again that you're going to micro boost your

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Nezha Alaoui: your program from A to Z

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Nezha Alaoui: with Amna. We started with the program that was maybe acting on 1%. And then we delivered it. Then, you know, like, we went into a bigger vision of like 5%.

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Nezha Alaoui: And then through

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Nezha Alaoui: amna and mastercard, and what we have done. Then she connected us and referred us to that big Telco that have another reach of 1 million with whom we're developing. Would I have ever had the access to that Telco, and able to work for them? If I hadn't done and achieved the 1%. And having had, you know, that great introduction with reference.

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Nezha Alaoui: and it wasn't signed by just the introduction. You understand like it's I'm not set me up with them. But I had 6 months of negotiation where I had to prove to them and pull out the pilots of what I had done, and this and that I had to go through, but but I had tangible results that I had already achieved.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Super smart, totally, I think the getting getting the data points. And then, also, you know, talking about how to position the data points to a new set of listeners or potential sponsors.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is a fascinating conversation. So I want to just double click on one thing because you brought up something that's so true for the catalyst, which is, we have this big vision audacious, whatever it is. Your advice is like spot on. It's like, where do you start to get your 1st data points.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But there's also this part of like. Sometimes the catalyst, or whoever will lean too hard into what the 1st sponsor is asking for versus the vision. And I'm just wondering if you have any guidance for people

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: to say, Yeah, I'm not going to activate the whole vision now, but the thing that the customer is asking for is too far away from my vision, and so I don't want to waste my time there, either.

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Nezha Alaoui: Well, you need to set your boundary. Okay? And your boundary needs to be large and not narrow. Okay, my boundary is if

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Nezha Alaoui: my partner told me, okay, we love the program, but we want it to be for men or multi gender. Then that was my boundary, because I have a brand that I'm building and an expertise, and so on. It's not. And what I say all the time. It's not that my programs are not applicable to men. Guess what. Let me build it for women.

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Nezha Alaoui: and then I'll teach your team to do it, you know, like for men as well with men. But I'm not going to dilute my brand. So so that's my limit. But within that spectrum of one gender

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Nezha Alaoui: there is a lot that I can do if I give you just examples of what I'm doing now, I'm building a space for Pepsico, of

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Nezha Alaoui: which is gonna be a hub where we're gonna have, you know, like daily activations for women. It's it's a space. Okay, that is sponsored by them. And we're managing it at women choice.

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Nezha Alaoui: I have that program for women social entrepreneurs that is happening digitally because it's women from different countries. With the Telco we are building a Mini app that will deliver the course within their app. So

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Nezha Alaoui: so you have to have also that creativity within. You know that

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Nezha Alaoui: one space. But if I was only selling

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Nezha Alaoui: one type of program delivery, then I'm becoming a school, and I'm not a school. Okay. I am really an organization that works hand in hand with corporations to find agile solutions to their industry to their, you know, like goals, and so on. So

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Nezha Alaoui: so you have to have that agility as well, to to be able to scale.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's so. I love the clarity of that. It's like you know what you stand for. You know what your purpose is. You're not missing the big vision. But there's so that provides the guardrails. But then there's a lot of agility and iteration and flexibility underneath supporting that purpose.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: What have been some of the challenges that you've experienced as a catalyst executive, and maybe share a story or 2.

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Nezha Alaoui: Of course, of course, you know.

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Nezha Alaoui: yeah, I think what is at an early stage in my career. Because, you know, I'm

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Nezha Alaoui: so passionate, and in the empowerment space

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Nezha Alaoui: I was not properly surrounding myself with team members that were really going to add a value and be at the level of my ambition. I was a lot recruiting people that needed to be empowered, and I felt like I can help them. And they're going to be part of this amazing mission. And of course, you know, everyone wants to be part of this amazing mission. The question is like, How much are you willing, you know, like to work hard to succeed it, and so on.

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Nezha Alaoui: So that was really phase one of my mistakes, and I've learned it in 2018, when I went to a leadership and innovation course at Harvard Business School.

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Nezha Alaoui: and they put us in front of a board for 20 min. And they said, okay, okay, you need to identify and write down. What is your mistake, you know, like that. Mistake that pattern that you have. And and I promise you that at the beginning of the 20 min like you don't have the answer, and you know, and and they told us, you know, like, of course, you're all here, you know, at Harvard Business School. So it's not like.

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Nezha Alaoui: you know. You're a loser, you know, like you must have done something right in your life, and you're probably thinking, no, but I've learned from all my mistakes, and they all took me where I am.

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Nezha Alaoui: But this is not the goal of this exercise. Because, like.

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Nezha Alaoui: if you want to get to the next level of your life mission, you really need to identify what is my biggest mistake. And so.

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Nezha Alaoui: So, yeah, so that was. And that really helped me from that point on to

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Nezha Alaoui: to really question, who do I embark, you know, like, in that ecosystem that I'm building, and so on.

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Nezha Alaoui: The second thing is, of course, revenue related, you know, like things are slow. They're always, you know, like slower than what we think they are. But then, if you understand that, and you're more in that anticipation of okay, it takes 6 to 18 months sometimes to close a partnership. And you're not, you know, like creating a business plan, thinking, you know, that in 3 months, you know, like, I'm going to have this, this, that. Then you get more realistic.

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Nezha Alaoui: Over the time.

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Nezha Alaoui: And the 3rd thing that, of course, you know, like also, I had to overcome with time is when you're building something that passionates you so much, you're also willing to do a lot, you know, like, without getting paid. And you're willing to do, you know, like a lot, because you're being paid by by the impact you're doing by leaving your

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Nezha Alaoui: passion every day. And you're like, you know, as long as I'm not dying. Then I'm succeeding, and so on. And you also need to shift that mindset, but not at the early beginning. Okay, I don't like to see 2825 year old, you know, like, or people who decided to reinvent themselves at any time and age, and you know, like who right away. Want to get paid. You know the big check

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Nezha Alaoui: to do what they're doing. You know, you need to

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Nezha Alaoui: to build your credibility in a market. Sometimes you move from one market to another. You know I was in New York. I moved to Dubai, okay. And for one year I was really getting paid whatever they wanted, you know, like I would come in, and I would be like, look, this is what I want to do.

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Nezha Alaoui: What are what are you willing to pay, you understand? And I knew I wasn't diminishing myself, or whatsoever. There is a reality to what they're willing to pay, and of course you know they will tell you what they have as a budget, and they're willing to spend right away.

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Nezha Alaoui: And then, of course, you understand that at least you can ask for 30% more, because you know, because you gave it so open that you know, they probably thought, let me give them, you know, 30% of what I'm willing to pay. But if they gave you a price, it's not that they're willing to pay 3 times more.

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Nezha Alaoui: So save yourself that time by, just, you know, like going in at the beginning and and asking and saying, Okay, what are you willing to pay? And you know, like, let me work out and see, you know, if it's possible, and then

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Nezha Alaoui: make your delivery, it will push you to get your delivery at a more smarter lean.

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Nezha Alaoui: you know, like delivery process.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Nezha Alaoui: Because, you know, maybe we're thinking 100. And maybe they're willing to give 30, which means that in reality they're giving 50. They're willing to give 50, but question your delivery. If your delivery costs 100 for you to make profit, then guess what this is the occasion for you to step in.

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Nezha Alaoui: learn, because there is always something to learn from the culture of these all these companies.

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Nezha Alaoui: And then, you know, like.

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Nezha Alaoui: make your product. You know a product that can get delivered at 30.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's such smart advice, and it's something that people, I think a lot of people who especially are stepping out of the corporate worlds forget which is like how long it takes to close the deals that you have to have the proof points like you were talking about earlier. You can't just come in and sell the big vision. It's like, let's carve out a little piece so I can demonstrate my value to you. So I think it's super smart advice. The one question you were talking earlier about like

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: there's almost like the double edged sword of being driven by your purpose, and you get so much out of it. So even if you're not the early days getting the revenue.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: we talk a lot about burnout in the catalyst world, because sometimes, even when we could, from a revenue perspective, stop working as hard as we had been in the 1st couple of years, because we're so connected to our vision, and it gives us such energy. We don't always stop and create the space. How do you create the space to recharge? Because obviously, you're doing a million things in the world to create impact.

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Nezha Alaoui: Yes. So yeah, I see a lot of people trying to create big visions alone. Okay, they don't even have an assistant. And and I think that is wrong, and I really see them being burned out of of being alone and not having someone to to assist them in. You know, like the conversations that they're having right and left, and so on. And then, you know, like going home and being behind a computer and doing the whole thing you know. So so

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Nezha Alaoui: an assistant is never, you know, the most

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Nezha Alaoui: expensive investment that you can do. So. There is you, and you need any project idea that you have that you really want to seriously take on.

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Nezha Alaoui: put yourself plus one, and it's not a co-founder.

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Nezha Alaoui: It's not a co-founder, because a co-founder is supposed to be with you at the front. Okay, co-founders are stronger than alone, because one is like talking here and the other one is talking there. So you get to result. But at least you need to have one person in the back office that assists you both, and it can be that one person for both. But it needs every project that really wants to see itself, you know, like, take off

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Nezha Alaoui: need to have that one employee. And and so so. Yes, so it's a. It's, it's an investment. It's a risk. But also so it helps you from the burnout. But at the same time that investment

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Nezha Alaoui: gives a sort of like continuity to what you're trying to achieve

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Nezha Alaoui: with really someone who's backing the idea

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Nezha Alaoui: and and the weeks that pass take to somewhere. Okay, you can see yourself as a founder or co-founder, deciding to be alone, spending a lot of time and thinking you're building a lot of traction out there with not like nothing closing. When in reality, when you have that person in the back office, there is.

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Nezha Alaoui: there is what you're trying to do like this, and then there is like some work that that is being done like this. So even if you haven't gone like this, you're still advancing somewhere, you're still building somewhere. You're building a database you're building, you know, like a

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Nezha Alaoui: and expertise. You're building some, you know, like concepts that you're that you're testing that are not just your ideas, you know. Yes, of course, you know, if you're out there, you're going to be sharing a hundred ideas, but none of them is even going to be

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Nezha Alaoui: transferred into a deck.

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Nezha Alaoui: you know. So if you have a hundred decks, you know, that has

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Nezha Alaoui: value at some point, I promise to have made decks 15 years ago that I'm using now. So those decks, you know, like there is like a little percentage that you change. But there is something tangible that is out there.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's super concrete advice. I really love the like, the actionable, you know how actionable that is. It's like, don't do it alone, which I totally totally agree with, and I always need. I need help keeping all of the cats together, the wheels on the bus, all the things all right. This has been an amazing conversation, but I'm going to ask our last and funnest question, which is, I'd love to hear about your favorite catalyst who inspires you, past or present, and why do they stand out to you.

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Nezha Alaoui: Well in terms of catalyst. I think if we're looking so yes, I'm going to talk to you about one in particular, because I just watched her Netflix show Marta Stewart, and I think when you, when you watch it so it's super, you know, like relevant. Everyone can go and watch it on Netflix.

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Nezha Alaoui: You look at how she's been reinventing herself many times before finding out what her brand is.

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Nezha Alaoui: Which is going to be. Martha Stewart leaving. Then you see how she was particularly ambitious at 4 women, and she ended up being the 1st woman billionaire, and she took her company to be in public.

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Nezha Alaoui: And and I think that that's amazing, because she really built a milestone there. We don't know. In the nineties many women billionaires that have built it on their own. We're not talking about someone who has inherited from like a big family group, and so on.

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Nezha Alaoui: Then she went through the struggles that she went through, and and I think it's public. You know that everyone knows that she went to jail at some point. And again, you know, like how she went through that. But you also realize that

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Nezha Alaoui: a lot of that

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Nezha Alaoui: a little bit, you know.

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Nezha Alaoui: She was really becoming to irritate the the public opinion, and you know government and everything for who she was and what she was standing for, and and a lot of what was

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Nezha Alaoui: thrown at her, you know, in a negative way, it's really because she was a woman in that position and in her way, you know, like of acting, whether you know, like with her employees, partners, or whatsoever you know it was, if it was, you know, a white man that was having that same attitude would just be looking at him as a mentor, thinking, My God, he's so strong and so on, and so coming from a woman, it wasn't perceived in the same way.

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Nezha Alaoui: So. So yeah, so I think she's an amazing catalyst. And I think she should be on this show.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, me, too. Let's get Martha.

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Nezha Alaoui: She's reachable, I'm sure if you try on Instagram, you'll get her. This is what I was saying earlier, like we are intimidated. We're thinking that you know we cannot have those people, or you know those big corporations. But we have to try.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I 100% agree you have to try. The worst you can get is the second one down, which is still gonna be.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you so much for this amazing conversation. I could listen to you for hours, but it's just it's so concrete and and actionable which I really appreciate. Thank you, Nizah.

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Nezha Alaoui: Thank you, Shannon. Thank you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And to our listeners. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out our book, move fast, break, shit, burn out, or go to our website at catalystconstellations.com. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Please take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and of course. If you have other catalysts in your life, or you happen to know Martha Stewart, please hit the share button and send a link their way. Thank you.