Melora Zaner, Chief Design Officer at TIAA - Designing Tomorrow: Visionary Leadership in Action

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I'm Tracy Lovejoy.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm Shannon Lucas. We're the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And this is our podcast move, fast, break burnout, where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. Today we are incredibly excited to have time with the chief design officer at Tiaa, and my very longtime colleague, and I'd like to thank a friend, Melora Zainner. Laura, thank you for being here with us today.

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Zaner, Melora: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to you guys.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Me, too. And for note, malaria is also one of the very early inspirations for the work that we got to do around what it is to be a catalyst so just a little little heads up of kind of the impact that she's had on our journey and lives

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): so more. We'd love to turn it over to you and get to hear about your catalytic journey. Can you introduce yourself, share a few of your career? Hail highlights that you're incredibly, you know, and proud of that. Show your catalytic nature in in action.

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Zaner, Melora: Well, I'm gonna just start with the formal piece of this, and then we're gonna we'll go. We'll go off on what this journey has been like. But, as you said right now, I am the chief design officer at Ti. Aa it's such a purpose driven opportunity we are addressing the retirement crisis in America, and to be chief design officer at a time when this 100 year old company

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Zaner, Melora: is looking to. Really, have a a voice in people's ability to retire with dignity. I mean, that's just that should speak to the catalytic nature in all of us. So, being in this role, I'm able to to lever my strengths. Tracy, as you mentioned, we've known each other a long time when I was a designer, and you were a researcher. And I have just. I've stayed on that path

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Zaner, Melora: and through the design journey that I've been on. It's led me to this place where I'm able to truly build on everything I've learned and lead a design led culture. Really focusing on the variety of craft required to do breakthrough work that helps create a vision that is truly end and holistic

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Zaner, Melora: and is unlocking innovation and inspiring, empowering our clients, our customers

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Zaner, Melora: to really pursue retirement security. That was a lot of words, probably some expensive words in there. But I just. I had to say that all of that, because, wow! Sometimes I have to pinch myself that I'm actually sitting in the seat and doing this meaningful work. But it wasn't.

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Zaner, Melora: I think it was intentional. I have a a very good friend who said, she's guided me throughout

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Zaner, Melora: later in my life in my career, and and she has said, be

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Zaner, Melora: You know you want to be firm in intention, but flexible in form.

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Zaner, Melora: So I started as a punk rocker, I mean, I started writing songs when I was 6 years old, and then, you know, I went to college, and of course, just like a lot of college folks, found my band, and my parents made me promise I would finish and get my degree. And as soon as I got my degree I was off traveling the country, as the you know, lead singer and songwriter for this punk band. And I I say that because

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Zaner, Melora: I've always been firm with intention, it has been about creating space for people to connect in meaningful ways through the art of song, storytelling, or design

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Zaner, Melora: that I would end up in design felt like a natural extension of that. And you know we got into some really good trouble together when we were working together, and we did some really meaningful work. And that's what got me hooked on. You know. A song is not necessarily going to save the world. And I mean it's going to have meaning, and it'll be part of our culture. And but you've got to be really lucky to have that song that breaks through and becomes

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Zaner, Melora: becomes that thing that changes people's mindsets. And what I found was in the work that we did together, I found that we could actually do something similar, create environments for people to build history and memories together have meaningful exchange

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Zaner, Melora: and through that actually have an impact on the world.

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Zaner, Melora: So Tracy and I worked on a project that led to a really meaningful innovation. And this was being able to send those animated stickers that everybody sends today and imessage. We chat Whatsapp, Facebook messenger.

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Zaner, Melora: But what's so meaningful about that is, technology comes and goes.

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Zaner, Melora: And I like to say it's just like in music.

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Zaner, Melora: Songs last longer than the singer.

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Zaner, Melora: So technology comes and goes. But that's those experiences on top that are everlasting.

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Zaner, Melora: So while the singer may fade, it's the song that stays in our memory just as Emerson messenger is gone today, and that was something we worked on. It's gone. However, everybody uses this innovation.

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Zaner, Melora: Everybody uses it uses it. It's like oxygen. It's just become part of our lexicon. How we communicate.

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Zaner, Melora: and that is what hooked me in, and no matter where I've been in my life and in my career, I've looked for those opportunities, those lightweight, meaningful innovations that can leverage, what technologies there? And if it's emergent, great, but will it matter? Will it make a difference? Will we remember it? Will it become part of our life one day, always looking for those opportunities. And I think that's

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Zaner, Melora: part of my catalytic nature, and why I would end up at a nonprofit focused on retirement, you know. Of course I would. Why not?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I I have goosebumps down my arms. That idea you just so beautifully exemplified the being firm and intention.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): But that flexibility that you have that core sense of purpose, of the the difference you want to make, and how it can really be lived in a lot of different lives. And and we often talk to catalyst about that. Our resumes can look

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): not like a straight line.

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Zaner, Melora: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): You've given us a really beautiful foundation to understand that journey. We usually talk about it as as seeking kind of the next challenge. You really challenge the way we talk about it. If that it's it's seeking the next way that I can live. My purpose

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): which is really, that's lovely. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that that version of your journey.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): So you've already been giving us clues in this way in your words. How do you relate to the concept of catalyst.

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Zaner, Melora: Well.

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Zaner, Melora: when I 1st heard the word.

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Zaner, Melora: I just immediately said, oh, of course there it is.

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Zaner, Melora: I've always felt

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Zaner, Melora: bit of a fish out of water.

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Zaner, Melora: I thought it must be because I'm a punk rocker, but I've

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Zaner, Melora: inevitably found myself in uncomfortable situations, and I like being in those situations I mean me being a a college graduate, the only female in a punk rock band.

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Zaner, Melora: It was an uncomfortable situation, touring with a bunch of guys playing in a bunch of clubs where there were other men, and often being the only woman performing that night to ending up at Microsoft. Standing in front of, you know, 400 male engineers saying, but sending an animated kiss, matters, you know, or

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Zaner, Melora: or

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Zaner, Melora: living in China for over 10 years.

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Zaner, Melora: and often being the only American, the only woman, the only designer in the room.

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Zaner, Melora: And just

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Zaner, Melora: to know that there was a name for it, and I knew I needed to be there, and I felt like corporate America needs us.

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Zaner, Melora: But I couldn't find others like me was always hard, cause I just I think I myself felt other than, and I reveled in it, and at the same time I found it very lonely. And as I started to learn to look for others like me. I didn't have a word for it to help us

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Zaner, Melora: coalesce around. So the word catalyst was just

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Zaner, Melora: so meaningful, because I said, That's it, cause to say we're change agents, or innovators, or rebels, or punk rockers, or whatever label you want to give us. It wasn't enough.

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Zaner, Melora: and I think catalyst

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Zaner, Melora: is the spark of the beginning of something.

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Zaner, Melora: and it just leaves it open for how we want to embrace that and move it forward.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah. And you can see, I have. You know our book right here, I think, for Shannon and I both. We talk about the reason the lightning bolt is that it's the like. Oh, my gosh! It hit me that word, but it's also to your point. The punk rack! It's well, but the it's meant to be like a tag right? That it's like, you know, spray paint. So it's both right.

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Zaner, Melora: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): We're meant to be here. How do I leave our mark? And also that like, Oh, that's me.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): right? So perfect perfect description.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And how does being a catalyst support you as an executive? Now that you're sitting at these these ranks that you're in.

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Zaner, Melora: you know.

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Zaner, Melora: initially.

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Zaner, Melora: I just didn't want to ever be an executive. I never thought I was cut out for it, I mean, look at me like I'm I'm don't look like your average executive. The if you look at my background, you look at the way I may dress. You know, my hair

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Zaner, Melora: being odd colors at times, just because I like to play with with life. I didn't ever feel that I would be considered as executive material honestly. And then there was this point where? I I think it was. It was. I think it's named Brian Chesky who came? Who

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Zaner, Melora: created Airbnb. He was a designer and he became a CEO. And I'm like, Hey, now, wait a minute. We can do that. And why haven't I thought of that before, and then it became one of those things of. And why not me? And why not someone like me? And isn't that needed? And

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Zaner, Melora: I got. I started leaning into that and really getting intentional about it, but flexible, and how it might show up for me, but just really leaning into it. And really working on

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Zaner, Melora: what is that voice that I would like to have? What are the changes? I would like to see? What are some of the really good hard problems I could look at and turn around and see in a new way. That would be something that

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Zaner, Melora: being in an executive position. I could have the purview to really initiate

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Zaner, Melora: cause. I like to start little revolutions here and there, and I just like it. Just it served me, and being part of the community, has really served me because I don't feel alone, and I have found others out there like myself, who were unlikely

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Zaner, Melora: and yet doing the breakthrough work, doing meaningful work, doing important work.

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Zaner, Melora: and doing it from that seat and recognizing that

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Zaner, Melora: we have a place, we have a voice, and we have a purpose. And we are needed. As I look at how fast

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Zaner, Melora: technology in science are moving exponentially faster than ever before.

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Zaner, Melora: We are needed in the executive seats because we can help navigate the speed that is going to be needed from the corporations today.

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Zaner, Melora: It is.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): So many questions assigned aligned to that. So I'm excited for Shannon to dive in.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. And it's it's really crazy. So you were talking about community, you're part of our catalyst leadership trust one of the other members. Melora just yesterday asked me the question. We had a whole other conversation at the end. She's like I saw your post on social, and I'm super curious. She's like. Do you think that catalyst can be C-e-o's?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I'd love for you to answer that because it just builds on where you were taking that conversation.

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Zaner, Melora: I would say a thousand percent, and I work for one to Shinda Brown. Duckett is our CEO, and she and I got into some similar good trouble, like I did with Tracy back in the day where we worked at Jp. Morgan Chase together, and we really did

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Zaner, Melora: good work in understanding young people

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Zaner, Melora: and how their emotions impact

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Zaner, Melora: their ability to save money.

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Zaner, Melora: And it was such good work because she sat there with us.

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Zaner, Melora: really understanding

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Zaner, Melora: young people where their mindsets are, what their behaviors are really appreciating.

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Zaner, Melora: The need for behavioral shifts and mindset shifts that need to occur to help young people be able to save for their future.

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Zaner, Melora: And after that project I promise myself, if if she ever calls, I'm coming running.

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Zaner, Melora: and when I saw hers turn up at Tiaa. I knew it. I knew it. This was this, was it if she called this? Was it. My father is a participant of this program. He is. Retirement is with Tiaa. It's been for years since.

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Zaner, Melora: I guess, early seventies. He told me he was a professor of philosophy who pioneered medical ethics. He's 1 of the early pioneers of medical ethics. So here he is, a philosopher in a white coat, and who would expect him

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Zaner, Melora: to have retired in the way he has

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Zaner, Melora: my mother, an activist, fine artist, and yet I have never had to worry about them in their retirement because they had TIA. And I've always been grateful for that.

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Zaner, Melora: So when she came to this company where I saw what this company does for teachers, I was like. That's it. I'm in. So. Yes, and when you have a company that is over 100 years old, and wants to be relevant for relevant for another 100 years, and wants to address the retirement crisis in America.

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Zaner, Melora: I think we're really lucky to have a catalyst as our CEO cause. She's she's paving the way, and she has purpose, and she has a sense of urgency. And she's fearless.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm a little teary also with the goosebumps that just full disclosure. So my late mom, who passed, who was my catalyst mentor she had. She had, you know, a lot of her retirement savings with Tia, and it's also meant the same thing to the family. Molora.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you for that, but also just the inspiration about like these pivot moments when these massive organizations with big history are doing great things. The opportunity to have the CEO catalyst, the catalyst. CEO, get you to be relevant for the next 100 years is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, that wasn't. That was an off script question, but I just had to ask it, so I'll bring it back a little bit later. Sort of can you share one or 2 of the biggest

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: challenges you faced as a catalyst executive. And maybe what helped you in overcoming some of those challenges.

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Zaner, Melora: Oh.

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Zaner, Melora: I actually really like challenges a lot.

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Zaner, Melora: In fact, if it's

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Zaner, Melora: if it's easy, I end up questioning myself. Am I really looking at this in the right way. Do I need to see this in another way?

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Zaner, Melora: Because I think that's when we get

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Zaner, Melora: we get breakthroughs. We get to have the hard conversations we get to really.

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Zaner, Melora: really get human

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Zaner, Melora: and think through

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Zaner, Melora: the necessary

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Zaner, Melora: things, to consider.

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Zaner, Melora: to make meaningful change, to have breakthrough products and services

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Zaner, Melora: to initiate something new for someone's career. You gotta be willing to have those conversations.

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Zaner, Melora: But something now that I'm in this executive role, something I have seen and I've always been somewhat aware of, because I've been stuck in the middle is is truly middle management.

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Zaner, Melora: The we have to be very keenly aware of top, down and bottom up, and then those in the middle that get caught and pulled in both directions.

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Zaner, Melora: For a company to move at the speed of the market and the speed of technology. Right? It's important that we keep evolving and that we challenge the status quo

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Zaner, Melora: But when you do that, you've got to also honor a company's current challenges.

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Zaner, Melora: You have to honor its cultural DNA

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Zaner, Melora: you have to find the opportunities within those to help the company move forward.

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Zaner, Melora: I liken it to something I call the art of skydiving. While time traveling

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Zaner, Melora: you have to be able to see the big view picture view while diving in and seeing the details. Meanwhile, always being aware of your past, your present, and your future, where you might go.

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Zaner, Melora: So while skydiving be able to time travel.

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Zaner, Melora: Now Tia is a prime example of that. I I truly believe we are in that moment.

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Zaner, Melora: but while doing that. We have to be hyper focused on our clients. We're taking them on a journey of change as well.

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Zaner, Melora: We also have to have that mindset

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Zaner, Melora: of

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Zaner, Melora: caring for those inside our company. Going through this journey.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Zaner, Melora: Doing that. Those at the top

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Zaner, Melora: are in on it, too.

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Zaner, Melora: and we've got consistency of language and tension. Those at the bottom understand how it connects to their work as they push their work up and forward, and then our managers in the middle. I think it's truly important to

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Zaner, Melora: ensure you're bringing them in along the way, giving them a voice in the changes involving involving them in the decisions wherever you can, so that you can co-create with them

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Zaner, Melora: in the same ways that we should be co-creating with our

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Zaner, Melora: our customers.

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Zaner, Melora: ensuring that

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Zaner, Melora: we are iterating with them along the way that they can see themselves in the changes we're making. They feel heard, they feel seen, they have a voice

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Zaner, Melora: and then, as the outcome emerges, they can say, there I am, or there's my idea, or if it's our clients, our customers, they're saying you heard me, and this is so much better

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Zaner, Melora: right? I think we can't lose sight of that challenge of bringing middle management along.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You just encapsulated like everything that we've been talking about as a company. This balance between, like, we know, we have to change and challenge the status quo, but the compassion and empathy that you bring Melora to recognizing. There's an amazing foundation to build on. We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We need to keep not just the lights on, but keep some of the things that got us to this amazing place today.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: while recognizing that the people in the middle aren't always meaningfully included in that pivot process into the future of the company and bringing them along. So I'm wondering. I hear the challenge. So as you're doing it, maybe just to double, click a little bit more on. How are you in Tia doing that and bringing the people along, it's easy to say, but there's a big middle there with a lot of middle managers.

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Zaner, Melora: I think it's part of, you know. Settled adage of practice. What you preach. If we want to be client centric, we want to be customer focused and leverage human centered methodologies where we can build true empathy

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Zaner, Melora: for

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Zaner, Melora: what?

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Zaner, Melora: Who we serve, what they are going through in their lives.

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Zaner, Melora: We need to also be able to do that internally.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, that's.

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Zaner, Melora: The authenticity. If we are looking for

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Zaner, Melora: clients to trust us.

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Zaner, Melora: we also have to have trust within.

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Zaner, Melora: And so I see it as just this whole complete ecosystem

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Zaner, Melora: of the ways in which we listen to those we serve.

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Zaner, Melora: We also are listening to those

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Zaner, Melora: who are surveying.

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Zaner, Melora: The

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Zaner, Melora: there are a lot of programs where we are

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Zaner, Melora: truly listening to our associates. We call our employees associates which truly are listening to them. We're creating opportunities for them to have impact where they can explore outside of their current skills and actually try on other roles and try, you know, in like an apprenticeship to to learn from others. If they want to grow their career. We take our engagement surveys super seriously.

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Zaner, Melora: We co-create solutions with them on things that bubble up in our surveys.

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Zaner, Melora: We really treat the associate experience as something we have to co-create and design. In the same way we are doing this with our clients.

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Zaner, Melora: So I just think that there's this authentic thread that runs throughout.

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Zaner, Melora: There's nothing like having a client sit with you

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Zaner, Melora: and

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Zaner, Melora: work with them through the art of storytelling. You know, we just did a workshop with a client where my peers said, why don't you just ask them what are their pain points. What do they need?

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Zaner, Melora: And I said we could do that, or we could have them tell us a story of their day.

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Zaner, Melora: and out of that we'll have conversations where we can unpack things that we might have missed.

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Zaner, Melora: But also we'll get new insights.

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Zaner, Melora: We take that same approach with our associates.

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Zaner, Melora: because by

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Zaner, Melora: leveraging their stories, creating moments where they can tell their stories.

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Zaner, Melora: we're able to learn so much more about ways we can serve them and help them grow.

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Zaner, Melora: And just like you want to have those breakthrough products and services through those kinds of exercises with your customers. We can't forget to apply that same thing internally and hold the mirror up to ourselves and use the same techniques within. And we are. We are doing that here.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's such a great reminder for catalyst, because, you know, we can be so in a good way. We can be so customer obsessed, or like looking for the New market opportunity, or how we're improving the customer experience all of the external things.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But I love sort of the Meta embodiment of bringing those skills that you know work when you're engaging customers into the internal one. And it I mean, I'm guessing I love your thought, but it becomes part of the proof point and the actual bringing people on the journey, because if they're experiencing how powerful that process is for them like, oh, no one at work has ever asked me that question or involved me in those conversations. Now I can understand why we need to do that in different ways, as we reach out into the market.

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Zaner, Melora: You know what? I'm so glad you brought this up, because this reminds me of

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Zaner, Melora: You know, when I was talking about you really need to understand a company's DNA. They're.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, 28.

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Zaner, Melora: Before you come in and try to radical change. Want to do it within that? DNA. But what needed to really shift? And when Tashunda came in. This was one of those things she started on right away. There was a mindset shift shift that needed to happen. We were. We have this amazing mission, you know, addressing

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Zaner, Melora: the crisis of retirement in America, making sure those who serve us are able to retire with dignity. Such a great mission, and people who work here. We're living and breathing that mission.

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Zaner, Melora: What we really needed to do, though, to make sure that we can be around for another 100 years

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Zaner, Melora: is we needed to shift our mindset.

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Zaner, Melora: Yes, we have this mission.

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Zaner, Melora: but we need to shift from a mission-centric mindset

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Zaner, Melora: to a customer-centric mindset

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Zaner, Melora: because it's not just about us being on a mission and offering retirement.

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Zaner, Melora: We can actually further understand, deepen our understanding of our clients and be able to be there where they are today. But you know that time travel piece. Also. Imagine where they're going to be in the future and be there for them

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Zaner, Melora: ahead of them.

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Zaner, Melora: so that when they're ready we are there.

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Zaner, Melora: and the way to do that is to get closer to them.

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Zaner, Melora: So by doing similar exercises

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Zaner, Melora: inside our company

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Zaner, Melora: that Aha! Moment of Oh, my gosh! I know how that just felt for me. And just seeing how this works we've trained, for example, every designer how to have conversations. We're also training them how to do storytelling my whole organization. We practice storytelling in in our monthly town halls, where we have researchers and designers. And we have behavior designers, design strategists, accessibility and inclusion operations.

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Zaner, Melora: Content writers, like all of them, are having opportunity to tell their stories. What's coming out of that is, then when we go and run these exercises with our clients, they can show up as their full authentic self, because they know the value of it, and they believe in it. And usually would have to tell people is trust the process, trust the process. But if you've been living the process, and you've been doing it over and over. That trust is there. So when you sit with the client, you have the conversation.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Zaner, Melora: It could be.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. Princess.

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Zaner, Melora: Real for you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: so powerful again. I have so many more questions. Tracy, do you wanna do you have any follow ups there.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, I'd love us to to shift a couple of times. You have referenced us as troublemakers, which I appreciate being, you know, in the club, and you also mentioned that that duality right that we can revel in the Punk Rock, the troublemaker, and also this, can sometimes not feel great. It can be lonely, or you know, other descriptors that we make, but

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): we can exhibit behaviors as catalysts that sometimes can be limiting as well. Right? And so I'm curious in your movement toward the executive suite. What have you found? That's been important to learn to allow you to sit in those positions as another way, right as you think about wisdom for your peers. What can stop us or hinder us

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): when you're ready to play at that level.

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Zaner, Melora: There's actually a whole list of things, and I think it depends on your own nature.

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Zaner, Melora: Paul.

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Zaner, Melora: we can get impatient.

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Zaner, Melora: especially in corporate America. Things might take longer than we like

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Zaner, Melora: and we have to lean back into our purpose, our reason for being here, for what we're doing

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Zaner, Melora: and understand

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Zaner, Melora: when to keep the pressure on and when to back up a bit, you adjust.

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Zaner, Melora: Think of incremental ways to do things.

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Zaner, Melora: Take the small wins as just as important as the big change you want to see.

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Zaner, Melora: because it's all about building the momentum.

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Zaner, Melora: It's also about understanding that

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Zaner, Melora: it doesn't always have to come from you. If you can ignite someone else

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Zaner, Melora: who then gets the Aha and can take something and move it forward.

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Zaner, Melora: That's also important. So it's we need to leave our ego at the door

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Zaner, Melora: and understand our idea may not always be the best idea.

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Zaner, Melora: But if we can serve as a catalyst for someone else to have their Aha moment

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Zaner, Melora: just as valuable.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It's.

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Zaner, Melora: Not even more so, because then it becomes theirs. And we we don't have to worry about that not invented here, syndrome that can happen, and and it feels like something they can authentically own and drive and we can move on to the next hard problem we want to solve. So

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Zaner, Melora: truly, being able to

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Zaner, Melora: find patients

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Zaner, Melora: except the little wins as just as important as the big change.

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Zaner, Melora: An idea doesn't have to come from us if we can help spark an idea that's great. So let's be willing to leave our ego at the door, and I truly believe in a beginner's mind. We'd be careful not to come in as the expert

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Zaner, Melora: careful not to come in as the person who knows better than you.

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Zaner, Melora: We have to come in humble

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Zaner, Melora: and truly truly curious.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Hmm, hmm.

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Zaner, Melora: Be willing to ask. Why, tell me more about that.

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Zaner, Melora: Be willing to leverage our art of influence on

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Zaner, Melora: asking questions in such a way that helps the other person arrive at the right answers.

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Zaner, Melora: It's a way of taking them on that journey of change without even

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Zaner, Melora: perhaps realizing that was your intention, but out of it you're going to get incredible, valuable information. That helps you understand something else. And that's the art of timing.

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Zaner, Melora: When to insert yourself how to insert yourself, because you've been curious upfront. Now you can engage what that person's motivations are, what their troubles are, their issues, their their own questions.

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Zaner, Melora: but through your continuous curiosity and question asking, asking.

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Zaner, Melora: you're showing your listening.

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Zaner, Melora: but you're also showing real interest in them.

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Zaner, Melora: But in turn

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Zaner, Melora: they're getting to actually be a thought partner with you, and 3 think through things themselves, and that's where they will get their Ahas as well. So I think we just have to be willing to do those things.

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Zaner, Melora: and I think

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Zaner, Melora: it's again, you know. Be firm with your intention, but be flexible. And how this thing emerges in front of you and remain curious. So I think, you know, starting out, I always felt like

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Zaner, Melora: I know what I'm doing. Let me get in there. I'm gonna show you a way. I can see the future. Come on, now, follow me. I'm gonna get you excited. And then, when nobody listened. You're like so not the company for me.

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Zaner, Melora: It's no.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So painful, Malora. Yes, oh, God! I feel so bad.

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Zaner, Melora: But on the flip side, like, remember what you you're bringing to the table. And remember your skills. And you guys have amazing tools for people to use to think through the art of timing the art of influence, and really leverage those instincts. But be flexible, and how it plays out for you.

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Zaner, Melora: Let your ego sit to the side.

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Zaner, Melora: We have to manage. The paradox of being humble, well confident both things can be true.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Hmm, hmm!

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Is there? Obviously you've had

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): experience that has allowed this wisdom to grow. Is there any other type of shift that you've had to make

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): to allow these things to become your default behaviors.

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Zaner, Melora: I had to get really clear on my values.

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Zaner, Melora: and I realized that I often would

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Zaner, Melora: take challenges because it was a challenge

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Zaner, Melora: they didn't always connect with my values.

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Zaner, Melora: And I took jobs because I'm like, Oh, that's a good, hard problem to solve. I can do that.

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Zaner, Melora: But it wasn't necessarily

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Zaner, Melora: fitting with the kind of impact I really wanted to have.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Hmm.

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Zaner, Melora: And if I wanted to really

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Zaner, Melora: really want to leave this world in a better place.

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Zaner, Melora: then, when I entered it, if I want to

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Zaner, Melora: say, I help someone else uncover

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Zaner, Melora: a piece of magic they had inside of themselves, and they went out and changed the world like, if I want to just have any kind of positive impact.

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Zaner, Melora: I've got to get clear on. What does that look like for me?

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Zaner, Melora: How do I define that?

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Zaner, Melora: How will I know when I'm living it?

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Zaner, Melora: And how do I want to show up in it?

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Zaner, Melora: What are my opportunities for experimenting with my leadership style. Invoice

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Zaner, Melora: within that that feel true to me

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Zaner, Melora: without sacrificing

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Zaner, Melora: my values. Who I am.

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Zaner, Melora: So I stopped just taking any challenge, and I've been very.

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Zaner, Melora: very clear on

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Zaner, Melora: the challenges I want to take on, and the why underneath them, and how they connect to who I am, and my values.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love how everything calms about you as you talk about that part like it's such a a visceral witnessing to what you're talking about the clarity that emerges when you really get to that that sense of of values

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): as your decision criteria. Thank you for that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That was an awesome insight, Tracy, because I felt the shift in my body, too. I was like.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Oh, yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: all right. Well, from the deep shift. Let's bring it back up a little bit. We and Milora knows I was excited as we were pre-call. I was like, I'm super curious about who Malora's favorite catalysts are past or present. No pressure. Malora.

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Zaner, Melora: I rebel in

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Zaner, Melora: those who are innocently innovative.

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Zaner, Melora: It's often people who are breaking the rules, and they don't know they are

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Zaner, Melora: those who are

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Zaner, Melora: challenging the norms, and don't necessarily stepped out to do that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Minute they're they're so real. And then we lost.

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Zaner, Melora: They're so real.

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Zaner, Melora: And they're real in that they're authentic. They're coming from a real place where somebody really was trying to solve a problem and the impact. I just love these everlasting impacts that can happen. So I have

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Zaner, Melora: 2 examples for you. One is

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Zaner, Melora: something that's called the curb cut effect.

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Zaner, Melora: Back in the 70 S. At Uc. Berkeley

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Zaner, Melora: a group of students solved a really big problem that benefits everybody.

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Zaner, Melora: They were the ones who came up with cutting a

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Zaner, Melora: cutting into the curbs

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Zaner, Melora: so that

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Zaner, Melora: people with canes wheelchairs

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Zaner, Melora: could cross the street

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Zaner, Melora: curb cut effect.

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Zaner, Melora: But guess what

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Zaner, Melora: if you got a bunch of groceries in your hand. It makes it easier for you, too, if you've got a stroller, makes it easier for you, too. If you're a dog, Walker makes it easier for you, too, and we are living and breathing it today where it is a norm.

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Zaner, Melora: And we don't even realize someone had to come up with that

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Zaner, Melora: how to cut into the curbs so that it's easier to cross the street.

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Zaner, Melora: And that was a group of these UC Berkeley students in the seventies. So I love that to me that was catalytic beyond

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Zaner, Melora: and one of my favorite stories, and just really

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Zaner, Melora: love the impact to our society as a whole from that.

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Zaner, Melora: and just shows real

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Zaner, Melora: accessibility and inclusive thinking.

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Zaner, Melora: Well.

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Zaner, Melora: now, another one is okay. I'll tell you a story. When I was in the 3rd grade

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Zaner, Melora: I was given one of those math logic problems. If John has 5 apples and Sally has 10 apples and they're in a boat and they're eating those apples, and one is going 5 miles an hour. I keep going right. All right.

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Zaner, Melora: Hate those.

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Zaner, Melora: Why do I hate them? Because

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Zaner, Melora: in 3rd grade I went up to my teacher and I said, I'm having trouble thinking through this. And why do I need to be able to do this kind of work.

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Zaner, Melora: and she said, Well, Laura, you're just never going to be able to do math.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: What?

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Zaner, Melora: I always wanted to not only be a musician, but be an inventor.

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Zaner, Melora: And when she said that to me I gave up on math.

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Zaner, Melora: Later in high school, I did get into ap geometry and ap algebra and later I went back to grad school and did trigonometry.

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Zaner, Melora: But I'm going to tell you something. It always was painful because those words were echoing in my ears.

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Zaner, Melora: Well, I did finally

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Zaner, Melora: prove a wrong

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Zaner, Melora: because, y'all know I've got a lot of inventions, and I didn't have to do math.

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Zaner, Melora: However.

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Zaner, Melora: someone I liken I relate to I liken myself to. I don't have her beauty. I didn't have her acting skills is hey, Lamar?

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Zaner, Melora: Hetty Lamar? Beautiful actress!

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Zaner, Melora: She did some major innovations.

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Zaner, Melora: you know, having a cocktail sitting in the bathtub comes up with something technology that actually led us to Wi-fi, Bluetooth and GPS.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Totally.

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Zaner, Melora: And she's the one who pioneered what what was it called?

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Zaner, Melora: Oh, I'm trying to remember. It was called frequency hopping back in World War 2.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Zaner, Melora: I love that she was an actress who would have thought her.

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Zaner, Melora: you know, would think of her as an inventor of something that led to Wi-fi, GPS and Bluetooth. So I, just like innocently innovative, just saw a problem, had an idea on how to fix it and just dared to do that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: amazing. And as a network engineer who worked in mobility like, I love that you picked that one. So thank you. Thank you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: thank you so much.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's been such a pleasure, Alara.

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Zaner, Melora: Me, too. I've enjoyed it, too. Thank you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And to our listeners. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world, check out our book, move fast, breakship, burnout, or go to our website. catalystconations.com dot.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And if you enjoyed this episode as much as I know I did, and Shanah did please take 10 seconds to rate it on Itunes spotify stitcher, or wherever you're listening to your podcasts. If you have other catalysts in your life, hit the share button and send a link their way.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Thanks again.