Meghann Brock, Director of Innovation for The Permanente Medical Group Northern California: Navigating Organizational Speed Limits

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon, Lucas.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And I'm Tracy Lovejoy. We're the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break, shit, burn out where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today we're super excited to have time with Megan Brock.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Like most catalysts, Megan's career has been unique. From a career as a theatrical director to a director of healthcare innovation, innovation. Her roles have been various, but one thing has been consistent

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: throughout her career. She's embraced pioneering roles without established roadmaps, consistently pushing boundaries and driving change.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: recently appointed as director of innovation for the permanente medical group of Northern California. Megan continues to lead change in revolutionizing healthcare delivery, combining her creative background with data-driven methodologies to shape the future of patient care. We're so thrilled to have you here.

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Meghann: Oh, thank you so much. That sounds so nice when you guys say it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It is really nice, and and I feel like deep connections between all of us. As I read out your journey, so I'm excited to hear about it. So let's jump in.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Tell us a little bit about your catalytic journey, maybe a few career highlights that you're proud of that help us see your catalytic nature.

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Meghann: Sure. So I I majored in theater. My undergrad was in theater, and I remember at the time that felt very risky.

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Meghann: and I had a family member that advised me like, just try it, you know. Do your 1st 2 years, and if you, you know, try out other subjects. See if you really want to go with it. And

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Meghann: you know, undergrads, undergrad, it's your graduate degree that's going to count. And I was. I'm really grateful for that advice from him, because it sort of gave me permission to realize like a that's not the end of the road, just because you get a degree in. One thing doesn't mean you can't continue and learn in other areas.

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Meghann: But when I got into theater I wasn't acting. I had acted before and and did musical theater and all that fun stuff. But I was really into directing. I'd had a wonderful mentor in high school who said that the theater needs more female directors, and I think you would be good at this. And

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Meghann: so I had started directing my senior year of high school, and had basically been running like a little theater business.

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Meghann: And so what I majored in was more directing production management stage management. My side jobs during college were all like working for theater companies, doing stage management, working with equity actors.

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Meghann: Sometimes some really scary directors that would come in from Southern California and be very intimidating for the 18 year old, 19 year old Megan to deal with

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Meghann: and so I got this degree, and it was more of a degree in running a business. It was like, how do you put together a production on a limited budget? Limited time? How do you get the right people in the right roles.

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Meghann: How do you kind of galvanize that group into creating something new? And you had a good structure like there's always the structure of the play.

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Meghann: and that's kind of the most important part is like, what play are you actually doing? And do you feel a connection to it? And do you feel like you have something to bring to it. But every group that performs the same, you know, plays that get performed multiple times in multiple casts, and each one is a little bit different, like it's not

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Meghann: the same thing twice, and I think that was what was really appealing to me.

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Meghann: So I moved to Seattle. And did theater in the Seattle area for a while and got to this crossroads of.

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Meghann: I had my day job in sales.

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Meghann: and they really liked my creativity.

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Meghann: and they expressed it by saying, Wow! What a great idea! And then they gave me money and healthcare, and we're really appreciative.

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Meghann: And in the professional theater world. It was a little more, a little more cutthroat. Lots of you know, ideas sort of your currency. So there was lots of like holding on to that, and maybe like a little bit of stealing ideas and taking credit for things that

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Meghann: rub me the wrong way. And I started realizing well all of my creativity.

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Meghann: And these skills can actually work in

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Meghann: companies and business and corporate. And I hadn't looked at that at all like if you had told me, take a business class I would have been like, oh, no! Why gross boring?

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Meghann: I'm not going to be that person. But I ended up having a real affinity for it, and part of it was like working with these teams and getting things going and thinking about how to do things differently.

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Meghann: So

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Meghann: that took me into my quarter life crisis because I found myself in sales for commercial lighting

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Meghann: because they liked my theater background, and that hadn't been an intentional move, and it was sort of like.

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Meghann: am I helping the world like my my goal was to do something where I was contributing and really giving back.

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Meghann: And so I started this like, core life crisis spiral of okay, if not theater.

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Meghann: What am I going to do? And like, what industry do I want to work in?

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Meghann: And my father had worked in healthcare. And he was like, I, you know, maybe consider it. He's like.

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Meghann: okay, started working in healthcare, working for his company and realized that you know, my basic bookkeeping job was actually helping someone figure out what kind of you know cancer they had, and stage it properly, and make sure that their surgery was successful. And it was like that feels really meaningful.

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Meghann: even if my little task

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Meghann: so which has now led to over 20 years of working in healthcare.

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Meghann: And the area that I've really managed to apply like the catalytic.

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Meghann: just big changes and big ideas and getting people to do things differently is performance improvement so much more in like the organizational development side very quickly. I had great, you know, bosses, but really they were all kind of mentors

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Meghann: and figuring out, oh, Megan can do this. Megan's good at doing this. So they kept giving me projects and project management things with like multidisciplinary groups

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Meghann: and pulling them together. And, you know, being able to have again have that framework having the performance improvement methodology where we're like really defining the problem. And we're doing tests of change. And we're experimenting. But we're tracking it so we can improve it.

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Meghann: So I had the the structure, but you could also have all the creativity with it. So I've launched multiple performance improvement programs and that mentoring and coaching of others.

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Meghann: Has really been a huge highlight of my career, really getting to see people get excited about being able to contribute to the work as well.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hey! What fantastic advice that someone gave you at the beginning, and that, you, you know, had the the daring to sort of lean into that like. I don't know where this is going to go, but I'm willing to go on that journey, and then I just love the thread of creativity of how you've

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: been able to bring that into all of the different places. And I have to say I haven't ever heard the quarter life crisis. I'm totally stealing that.

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Meghann: It's a thing that's.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Brilliant. Yeah? And so like, just sort of building on that. How then, now, do you relate to the concept of being a catalyst.

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Meghann: I think the part that really resonates with me is

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Meghann: how you have to get really comfortable with uncomfortable situations.

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Meghann: and certainly the more you progress in your career. When you're in this space, it's probably not true for everyone, but

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Meghann: the higher up you go, the more ambiguous the situations are. And if you're not comfortable with being uncomfortable and living mainly in that murky gray

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Meghann: area.

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Meghann: it's really going to be a struggle and and recognizing how other people react in that, too, and how you kind of can adjust your behavior

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Meghann: to help everyone

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Meghann: get through it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I love that clarity so much, and I've never actually heard anyone. We love doing these conversations because we get these nuggets ourselves, which is the clarity of the higher up you go, the more ambiguous the problems get, and that feels really true to me. I'm wondering how that then, has supported you as a catalyst executive.

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Meghann: Someone's bringing you a birthday present. Sorry. That's it's okay. Just put it down. Thank you.

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Meghann: Sorry. It's my birthday. So presents are arriving from the heavens.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Happy birthday. It's my.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): My husband's birthday.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: My goodness, it's my mom's birthday.

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Meghann: Oh, my gosh! Look at this. There is a connection. We have a connection.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's crazy.

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Meghann: So I'm so sorry. Ask me your question again.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, no worries, no worries. It was such an.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): For the question. I'm excited about birthdays.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It was such a great insight that you had about like how the higher up you go in an organization, the more you're going to be forced to, or asked to, or maybe lean into dealing with more ambiguity. And so I'm just wondering, like as a catalyst executive, how that might have has been supporting you.

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Meghann: So I think the key is having that clear like making the clarity for yourself. So almost every job that I've had.

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Meghann: someone didn't have it before me. It's either a brand new position that didn't exist before, or it most of the times. It's a brand new position that didn't exist before. So even the person who's hiring me does not know exactly what the job is going to be. They know that they need help with this or that, and they think that I'm probably going to be able to figure out how to do that.

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Meghann: And that's led to, you know, frustration, right. Roles and responsibilities gets you every time. It's so annoying. And when it comes back I'm like, Oh, it's that again. Roles and responsibilities. We didn't clarify this we didn't understand who was doing what?

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Meghann: So I think getting comfortable with, Okay.

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Meghann: you aren't giving me a framework. I'm making the framework.

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Meghann: but I'm going to document it or illustrate it, or communicate it in a way that makes sense to you, and that you can agree and adjust and tweak, and we can come to that like shared understanding. So kind of trying to make.

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Meghann: Yeah, I worked with a doctor who called it like hugging a cloud.

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Meghann: And it's true. There's a lot of that where you feel like you're just hugging a cloud. And how can you make that cloud? Maybe a marshmallow. And then the next day, maybe make it like a pillow, and then one day it'll actually be like a nice rock that you can build a foundation on.

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Meghann: but just having faith that you'll get there.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I'd love to build, because I'm already hearing you talk about some of the the challenges that we experience as catalysts, and so I'd love to open it up to just

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): what are some of the biggest challenges that you have faced as a catalyst executive.

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Meghann: Oh, gosh!

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Meghann: There's a lot of them. I think one of the biggest ones is. The pace

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Meghann: is really a challenge, you know. It feels good to get things done fast right? I think all of us have had that feeling of just.

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Meghann: you know. Wow! I got so much done on my list today. Doesn't that feel good? You get like a little little dopamine hit?

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Meghann: And you know it is. It's just like, just check check, check check check. And yeah around. And I do think catalysts tend to move fast.

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Meghann: and not everyone is moving as fast as you or not on at the same time right like they might. We all have rhythms of when we're at a faster pace than others.

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Meghann: So I think setting the pace is one of the things that's really important, and remembering that if you don't get all of the stakeholders kind of, or your team with you.

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Meghann: if you leave anyone behind like you haven't won the race because you got to go back, and then you got to fix the thing, and you got to make sure that they come along, or you, you know you've overlooked something, and so you feel like you're going too slow. But if you don't go at the correct pace, whatever that medium middle of the road pace is

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Meghann: your, you know. Your speed is going to slow you down, and we have tons of time

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Meghann: to go back and fix things.

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Meghann: you know, and so it's like hard to remember, like, well, we don't have time to go that slow. We don't have time to take all these hours to figure out all of the details of this and that. Let's just really quickly jump to a solution. And it's like, Well, you don't have time to sit down and think about it for a couple of hours in the beginning, but you have endless hours to go back and refix the thing because you didn't.

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Meghann: you know. Take that time to be thoughtful and strategic and intentional, and it's hard I get carried away with it, too. Like when I'm around people that are exciting, and we're popcorning ideas like I can get right into it with the best of them. So pulling myself back out of that is is definitely the challenge that you know I'm working on. I think I've gotten better at it.

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Meghann: But we all have.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Birthed a visual in me that I I'd not had before that I love the idea like I'm literally seeing a a

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): a runner hitting the the line. What is it called?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Finish. Line. Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Finish line. Yeah, like the thing. And it's like, if you're there alone.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): you lost as a catalyst. If you don't have all the people with you crossing that finish line.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Then it didn't count.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): That is so powerful. I love that. Thank you for that. For that image

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I have a kind of a random question, tying to something you said earlier. You said, you know.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): performance improvement has been a lot of what you have done. You've been proud of in your career. I'm curious if if thinking about catalysts, now that this, you know kind of term exists, was ever part of it intuitively.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): and it might not have been. It's it's truly just a curiosity.

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Meghann: So over the years we've definitely done different exercises like with the strength finders, I think it. I think it pops up in strength finders where you can look at like, who are the people?

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Meghann: And I can't remember all the different names for them. But there's like the there's like sort of the change agent, you know.

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Meghann: and I and I definitely had people call me like, you know.

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Meghann: like, you're a free radical. You're just like bouncing around and like making things happen. I don't know if it's a compliment or not, but I always take it as a compliment. Thank you. Thank you.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, I know. So.

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Meghann: I think it's there definitely personality, typing and making sure that. That people understood like those drivers and how important they are. And in a lot of our sort of like working style exercises. You know, the drivers kind of get a bad rap because they tend to just drive right over everybody else, because they want to move fast. They want to get everything done.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Totally.

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Meghann: But you know we need them too.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): A 100%. And that's part of you know, part of you know what Shannon and I do when we work with organizations helping identify catalysts and upskill them and help them be positively disruptive and learn the lessons that you're bringing forward. And so I was just curious, if just in, you know, in in your work that crosses over. If there'd ever been an element of did it help to identify these folks at all? Or that was yeah.

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Meghann: I think so. I think so. I mean

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Meghann: a lot of times. It's the team dynamics, part of it, like if it especially when I was working. I had 52 teams that were in inpatient and outpatient settings.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Meghann: Was a program that was designed to help our

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Meghann: frontline healthcare employees collaborate with the managers on work workflow improvements, and so that it wasn't just like management, saying, you'll do this, and it will make your life better like letting the people that know the work best contribute to.

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Meghann: you know, fixing the workflow problems.

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Meghann: And a lot of times, you know, these people have worked together for a long time, and it's like a family. And so there's like layer after layer of history and things that have happened, and feelings about that. And I think you know, often coming together and kind of doing some level setting and doing a little personality, typing exercise, no matter what it was, whether it was disc, whether it was working styles, whether it was something else.

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Meghann: helping people to understand that not everyone comes and approaches problems the same way.

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Meghann: and being able to give each other a little bit of of grace in that was always like one of the foundational things that really helps the teams to to function.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Beautiful.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You had mentioned earlier. Like, I love the concept of the free, radical, and sort of the positive, free, radical. And you're like I was often it sounded like almost tapped for jobs that didn't exist before.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm wondering if you have a sense of how people knew that it was you or like, if you were able to start to articulate like this is a specific value that ability to like hug the clouds or deal with the increasing ambiguity is like something that is not just comfortable for me that I love like? How are those connections made.

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Meghann: I think@firstst Actually, I'll go back to the theater part right? So even though my focus wasn't acting, I had plenty of practice acting and and then speaking, being the director, and having everyone, you know, running meetings and things like that. So when I 1st started my my immediate supervisor was terrified of public speaking.

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Meghann: She was terrified of it, and we had something that we were rolling out to the senior leadership, some software that we needed to teach them how to use. And so she was like, Will you present it with me? And then I'll stand next to you

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Meghann: because really position wise. It didn't make sense for me to be the one leading the meeting. So she just stood next to me.

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Meghann: And that's how people in leadership saw me. That's how they started noticing me. So I think, being able to

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Meghann: have that public speaking comfort and not being afraid to get up in front of a group, which, of course, now behind that

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Meghann: I'm not just getting up there and just saying random stuff like that means I'm preparing. That means that I'm you know, making sure that I have, you know, a plan for what I'm gonna do, what I'm gonna say, how I'm gonna run the meeting

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Meghann: and that really did continue. That was the visual part that I think leaders were drawn to. They would come to a meeting that I was running. And and you know, sometimes it was huge, like 100 people meetings, and a new executive came in and saw, and was like, Why are her meetings like, well attended, and everyone's really happy to be here, and my meetings are kind of not great, and you know I'm running all the managers here like I need her help.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Just to like double. Emphasize that because we talk about the power of storytelling so much, which is what helps, then sort of convey

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: everything that is catalyst is going to make you successful behind that. So I hope. Just shout out for our listeners the power of really great storytelling.

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Meghann: Absolutely and finding good stories. I mean, that's another place where, because of the theater background, we had patients. Patient stories were used a lot to help people with certain initiatives, or like, just remind and ground everyone and

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Meghann: what we're doing. And so I did do a lot of work with our patients hearing their stories about how we saved their lives and what impact we we had made, and so, being able to interface with all kinds of different people

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Meghann: and get them to be able to share with me. You know, some really intimate stuff, and and then being able to use that to affect

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Meghann: the workforce so that you know everyone can can tap into.

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Meghann: Oh, that's why we're here. That's right. That's why we're here like

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Meghann: you may be having a bad day. But

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Meghann: we've got to take care of these patients.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love that that frame of not just storytelling, but finding the story

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): right.

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Meghann: Right.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): That in this organizational environment, with this set of of patients.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): What is the right story that that emerges? That's that's really powerful

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): healthcare. You've lived there for so long. And and I'm curious it there's a lot of good reasons that healthcare moves slowly, and that that.

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Meghann: Absolutely slower.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): But but for catalysts that can be tough, and so to meet a catalyst who's been an executive, who's been there for 20 years.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I would love to hear in that challenge area. What have you learned about being able to

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): deal with move through organizational resistance?

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Meghann: Yeah. I mean, I think with any big company it I think it's a big company thing, too. It's just when you have so many different people, and there's different departments. And

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Meghann: you know I'm I'm always, I think, the biggest missteps in my past have been missing a stakeholder or missing a stakeholder group

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Meghann: because it's so complicated. And so sometimes that's because of speed. Sometimes it's just because of pure. I had no idea that they were involved in that step. I didn't know that we should talk to them. I didn't realize that was going to impact them.

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Meghann: I think it continues to be something that

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Meghann: I work on.

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Meghann: and that we, you know that my team works on is that communication.

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Meghann: and who to talk to when

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Meghann: and how much and how little or you know, you don't want to overwhelm. If it's not like mature enough, especially when you're in innovations. It's like, when's the right time to go. Okay, it's time to share this poc more broadly. What's the right amount of success before we start bringing people in? Because we don't want people

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Meghann: getting worked up, thinking that we're turning the world upside down when we haven't even done our Poc and figured out if it works like, there's no reason to to stress people out unnecessarily. So a lot of it's timing and communication and not forgetting

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Meghann: not again, not moving too fast. Okay?

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Meghann: Who do? I need to talk to about this. Who am I missing?

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Meghann: I probably should have like a big stakeholder chart on my wall, I'm like looking around right now, where could I put it like.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I was just thinking, Megan, cause I think, like I you know, you're gonna be taking the class. And I was just like everything that you're talking about. And then just having the tools and support I'm like, Oh, I'm so excited for to have you in the class. It's gonna be so fun. Yeah.

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Meghann: And it's and that's the thing is like when you're in a when you're in a smaller group, it's easier to kind of know your stakeholders. The bigger you get the higher in the organization. It's like, Oh, my gosh! There's a

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Meghann: it can be a little overwhelming. So again, like going from that hugging the cloud to actually having something tangible.

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Meghann: If I feel like I'm missing stakeholders. The thing that I'll do is

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Meghann: post-it notes and whiteboarding and going. Okay? Who now? I have them all up here? Who am I missing? And then, like as the day progresses, I might think of something. Throw another post it, note up there and be like, Oh, yeah, I did forget someone I did. I did overlook something.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love that iterative sense, right? The acknowledgement 1st of it is complex, like, you know, we're not going to catch it all.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And then it's the timing like, is it? Now, is it? Later, you know, we'll test it. We'll come back. Oh, who are the right people? Is this the right pace. And there's a lot of grace that I hear

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): in the learnings through through your experiences of knowing like

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): we know, we're gonna get it wrong to some extent. And so it's about, you know, having that map having that board that

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): keeps us in it. And remembering that there's complexity and more to do. That's really I love it.

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Meghann: Yeah. And I'm fortunate that the team that I work with and this has been pretty consistent throughout my career is that it's, you know, making it okay to fail, and not having fail, be like fail. It's not fail. It's I think I saw it in a classroom like 1st attempt in learning. It's like the acronym fail.

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Meghann: and it that really resonates because it's like, Okay, well, let's make sure that we fail fast

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Meghann: and that we fail in this like safe space, where we learn from it right? And so every time that there's kind of a

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Meghann: institutional slowdown, which is usually because of some sort of failure on some part of communication and and coordination and alignment. It's like, Okay, well, this is really good that we're catching this now.

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Meghann: because this is a great learning for us. And now da da da, and so framing it like that, so that people aren't afraid to say, I think we might have a problem, or I think I might have messed up.

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Meghann: You know.

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Meghann: That's I want people to tell me. I want. I want everyone to feel safe saying like, -oh.

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Meghann: there! There might be a problem here, and not just like, Keep it quiet because they're afraid they're going to get in trouble.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: As I listen to you, a like the depth and structure of your insights just feels like

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: a magic wand for catalyst like everything you're talking about is like, if we could all just do that.

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Meghann: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And.

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Meghann: Said than done.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But and so my question, I have a follow up question, which is like, How do you manage your energy? Because it sounds like you were. You were doing a lot of self management. But it also sounds you're like doing a lot of organizational awareness and container creating. So people can come, say that I was like, how do you sustain your energy and all of that.

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Meghann: You know, when I was working with the 52 teams

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Meghann: it came up a lot. I'm glad you asked that question because it was. I was coming home at night, just drained like exhausted, like I was covered in psychic energy.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Meghann: We were going from group to group, really fast, because there were so many of them, and they needed help. And

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Meghann: and it was like I felt like I needed to take a shower like I was like. I have to like, wipe all of these emotions off of me.

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Meghann: and I.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: We're only laughing because we totally get it. Yeah.

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Meghann: Just like I had to like. Take all this venting. And and what's fortunate is that working in healthcare? I asked a physician. Mentor, I said.

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Meghann: it's wearing me out. How do? How do I? How do I make this a little bit better for myself? Because this isn't sustainable like I can't. I can't be emotionally drained every single day.

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Meghann: and doctors know how to do this right. They they learn how to take care of patients and not take on the suffering, and still have that empathy and and still function well.

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Meghann: And so his advice to me was, you know, make sure that you have a little bit of time between each meeting like you're scheduling yourself way too close.

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Meghann: But even if you don't have time like, let's say you're because I'd be going from like a really high, level executive meeting, and then I'd be going to meet with our environmental services group in, you know, the basement of the hospital, and I remember one time I didn't do a good job of switching gears, and

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Meghann: and the chief steward was like, you need to stop talking. You're using too many big words, and I don't understand anything you're saying.

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Meghann: And I was like.

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Meghann: Thank you for the feedback.

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Meghann: I have to slow down.

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Meghann: I have to adjust my audience. So what I started doing was, based on his advice is like taking time at the end of each meeting, and like taking a few deep breaths

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Meghann: and kind of mentally closing that like. And that's done.

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Meghann: and then take a few breaths and then like, Okay.

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Meghann: and now who am I going to see next? And what do I need to do to get myself ready for that?

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Meghann: And even just remembering to take a few breaths and go. Oh, I'm supposed to do the thing that'll like help me, you know, even if I don't

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Meghann: sound all or to, you know, it's like oh, yeah, I gotta do the thing where I like stop. And then and then I move to.

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Meghann: But like, take a few breaths.

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Meghann: got your job.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Going back to Tracy's piece about you even have grace for yourself. The self compassion in your process is like I might not even do the reboot right.

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Meghann: I don't. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, but I remember I'm supposed to do a reboot, and that alone helps me a little bit. It's better than.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, yes, I have massive goosebumps right now. All right. Do you have any? I mean, I don't know. I feel like you're a profound fount of wisdom. Do you have any other pieces of wisdom for other catalyst executives?

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Meghann: I think the thing that really helped me, and I've mentioned a lot of them today throughout our conversation is just finding good mentors

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Meghann: and not expecting

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Meghann: that you should just be able to do it like, I think you know, imposter syndrome is a thing especially with women, especially as you're in higher and higher positions.

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Meghann: and

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Meghann: I think, having like the imposter thing I think comes from like oh, and I should be able to do it without any help at all.

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Meghann: Right, like I should just be able to know everything and and be perfect all the time.

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Meghann: And it's really unrealistic, you know.

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Meghann: Professional athletes have coaches right?

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Meghann: The the people playing in the you know us open and Wimbledon have coaches all the time. They have coaches. They are world class athletes, but they would never say, Oh, I don't need a coach anymore, because I'm I'm fine, and I can just figure out what I'm doing wrong on my own.

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Meghann: So, having that objective person

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Meghann: to be able to be honest with you in a way that you can take, you know, in a way that's actionable and able to like, receive, like you don't need someone just like beating you up all the time, but

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Meghann: having some sort of mentor coach

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Meghann: even just a work, Buddy. You know it doesn't need to be some high level thing. It can be as simple as like just that person that you can trust to give you feedback on how that meeting went.

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Meghann: and even to talk about well, what could we do differently? I mean a habit that I've developed over the last like 5 years.

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Meghann: At the end of every training session that we would do. And and we started doing at the end of meetings as well. It's like, okay, what went well today.

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Meghann: what are we gonna do differently tomorrow

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Meghann: and just doing that at the end of everything.

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Meghann: And what's nice is. It's not what didn't go. Well, it's what are we gonna do differently. What are we gonna try?

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Meghann: And so it's positive. And so it lets the whole group kind of go. Well, maybe we should try this instead of going. Oh, we screwed up at that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's such a you're you're reminding me of a pivotal moment in my career when I was like stepping into this really big role and imposter syndrome was so loud, and it was like I looked for the mentors outside, but also the recognition that I didn't have to do it alone on the inside.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and that you can build even if it's matrix teams like you were talking about like your work, Buddy, or whatever just like you don't have to do it alone. But the cultivation of having the support mechanisms is everything, especially for us. This catalyst.

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Meghann: And they don't teach you how to do it like they don't.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Right.

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Meghann: They don't, you know. I think it's an investment right? And I don't know that companies realize. Oh, this is an investment we should be making. I mean, there's mentorship programs. And there's kind of buddy onboarding programs. But

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Meghann: you know, and maybe it's just a certain group of people.

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Meghann: I was really fortunate that I found a mentor who was officially a mentor for a certain project, and then she saw how much I was getting out of it, and she

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Meghann: started teaching me more stuff, and she had this great background she'd worked in. Ge. She worked at Pg. And E. She had this big company perspective.

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Meghann: and you know she called me Grasshopper, and she would teach me

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Meghann: like how to navigate politics and how to like be the best that I could be and control what I can control. And she she definitely had a huge influence. And I've continued using her as a as a thought partner to this day, I mean, I still, I still talk to her regularly. I just adore her, and I've known her since. I think 2011 is when we started working together.

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Meghann: And

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Meghann: it was invaluable. But no, that just happened, you know. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a mechanism to help

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Meghann: people, you know, at least learn how to ask for it, or learn how to spot someone who might be willing to be a mentor, and then have the words to ask them.

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Meghann: you know, would you be willing to to continue mentoring me? Would you be willing to coach me on XY. And Z. And kind of normalize that because I feel like at this point.

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Meghann: If someone has a coach that a company has invested in, it's it may be an Hr issue, or it may be.

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Meghann: you know, it's like you just don't know.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Month. That's right. Totally. Yeah.

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Meghann: And I know.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: The other. The other thing that someone helped me see really on. When I got I got connected like I was super junior, and I got connected with the coo, and I had like I was like I was so afraid of wasting his time.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and he had disabused me of that so fast. He's like, I get a lot out of this, too. So I think it's also the reminder to the people who might be hesitating to ask somewhat because of the stigma is like. It's not always just one way, you know.

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Meghann: Absolutely. Oh, no, it's absolutely not. I mean, I get a lot out of mentoring people. I love talking to people and having those sort of like coaching development conversations and

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Meghann: and it makes me feel good when I see them like

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Meghann: growing, you know, it's again it goes back to theater, like the thing I loved about directing is we would work so hard. And then, on opening night, I couldn't do a damn thing.

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Meghann: I had no control over any of it. It was like, Okay, I'm just going to stand here in the back of this dark theater, and I'm going to hope that it all happens the way it's supposed to happen, and I can't control it. I can't get up there and act it for you. I can't do the lights and the sets and the costumes for you like. I'm just standing here watching now.

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Meghann: But I love that. And and I love like watching people grow and develop and

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Meghann: you know whether or not I have a hand in it, but certainly, if I can help people out, I

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Meghann: I do. I get something out of it. It's it's like the gratitude thing like if you tell someone that you're thankful for them, it actually makes you feel good, too. So it it same thing, mentoring, giving to others, does give to yourself.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Once again. You're helping me see that visual of there should be a lot of people with us at that finish line.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It is never alone, and so I'm so glad you'll be with us in the fall in the class, one of the tools. This is what Shann was alluding to. We literally have people build a network map.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It's for the the current kind of areas that they're visioning toward. But would I? It's not just a like it's a it's an ask. Please shout out to the class, don't forget to find your mentors. Don't forget to find your coaches.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): because it's not typically something we're talking about, because we're talking about it in the context of a problem. But that wisdom is.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): it's gold. So thank you.

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Meghann: Oh, thank yeah, you're welcome. I'm glad it's helpful.

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Meghann: Your little bubble, you're like, Oh, is this helpful? Okay, good.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It's helpful. Oh, it's helpful. Thank you for letting your bubble join our bubble.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And as we wrap up today, Megan, this is our always our favorite question. We'd love to hear who your favorite catalyst is, past or present.

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Meghann: So this is a this is one of those things that you know I was. I was looking at

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Meghann: possible answers for this question.

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Meghann: and

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Meghann: My partner started laughing at me, and he's like, why don't you just tell them the truth?

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Meghann: And I was like, What's the truth?

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Meghann: This is kind of like those questions like, you know, who would you have dinner with that? Are like Gandhi Madonna? I don't know.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: See you, Madonna.

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Meghann: Starting to come up with like.

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Meghann: I don't know the most amazing catalyst ever it's like. Just tell them the truth, I said. What's the truth. And he's like, it's your dad.

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Meghann: And I was like, you're right. It absolutely is my dad.

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Meghann: So my father is. I'm gonna get emotional.

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Meghann: He has helped me so much in like every step of this journey.

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Meghann: and you know he's he's a businessman. He worked in healthcare, but he worked in a lot of other industries as well. And he absolutely was a catalyst and hearing like just his career path.

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Meghann: gosh. Maybe you guys should interview him on a podcast because, it's like.

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Meghann: he started in this, you know this one space. And then through saying yes to things, through being open to things, through having people going, hey? I think you could do this. I mean.

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Meghann: he was working in a farm implement he was. He was running a farm implement division in Central California.

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Meghann: and randomly, this bank president that he was working with for that said, You know I've got this hospital that we've had to like foreclose like we are taking over this hospital because they haven't been paying their bills. Can you come in and like.

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Meghann: fix it up and like, make them a functional business again. And that's how he ended up in healthcare. He was like, Yeah, okay.

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Meghann: And then he ends up going on this totally different path, you know, and he had no healthcare background at all. I was going from a farm implement division.

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Meghann: So yeah, he's just. He's had a really incredible life, and he has a very

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Meghann: you know, sort of even killed approach to things, and he's 91 years old.

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Meghann: and I still consider him. Actually, he is one of my coaches like I'll say I need to book an appointment. I I need to talk some stuff over with you, and he still gives me like the best advice.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Sounds like, we should definitely have him on the podcast.

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Meghann: I think he's the one.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: What? A burst.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Sure. Yes, for sure.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Shannon just shared a quote recently from a friend of hers. Instead of saying it, I'll invite you, Shann, about the transition with your kids.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Oh, yeah. So you know, you're successful. This was more geared, for when your kids are like, you know, junior high to high school, and in that weird transition like, How do you navigate them becoming adults and like, then, you know, you're successful when they fire you as their managers. But rehire you as the coach.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): But I love that at 91 you're still hiring your dad as your coach.

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Meghann: Yeah, absolutely.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Testament to his his parenting, to the relationship, that you both have the trust that you have in one another.

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Meghann: He's great. He's great. Yeah, no, I really. I'm I'm very fortunate there, and it was so funny that my heart's like, why don't you just tell them like, why are you keeping it a secret like.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And how seen you are. Go, partner.

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Meghann: Keep.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Well, Megan, I hope this is the 1st of a Zillion conversations that we'll get to have with you, because I can tell we just barely scratched the surface of the vast wisdom that you accumulated.

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Meghann: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, thank you so much for being here with us. And thank you so much to our listening audience. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out our book, move fast, break ship, burnout, or go to our website at catalystconstellations.com.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And if you enjoyed this episode as much as we did, please take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and if you have other catalysts in your life, hit the share button and send a link their way

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: thanks again.