Matteo Cattaneo, Group Chief Transformation & Services Development Officer, Reale Group - From Tradition to Transformation: Leading Change in a 200-Year-Old Business

Shannon Lucas (00:02):

Hi, I'm Shannon Lucas, and I'm the CO CEO of Catalyst Constellations, which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world. This is our podcast Move Fast Break Ship Burnout, where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today I'm thrilled to have Mateo Catano. Uh, he's the group Chief Transformation and Services Development Officer at the Reality Group. After 10 years, spent in strategic consultancy for financial institutions in K-P-M-G-G and Bain. In 2005, he entered the reality group as responsible for recruitment and human resources management and the quote unquote organization department within the group. He had then covered roles such as sales director and moved on to general manager for the service company of the group today in his role as Chief transformation officer and services development officer overseeing transformation, corporate venturing, partnerships, digital transformation, data science, new services, all things catalyst, love for the group. I'm thrilled to have you here with us today, Mateo.

Matteo Cattaneo (01:08):

Hello Shannon. Thank you very much for having me. And hello to all the Catalyst listener. So glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Shannon Lucas (01:14):

Awesome. Well, let's jump in. Uh, we'd love to hear about your catalytic ur catalytic journey, maybe with a few career highlights that you're proud of that help us see that catalytic thread through your, through your journey.

Matteo Cattaneo (01:26):

Well, the journey has been a roller coaster, I would say, but as you see from my fancy title, a lot of things on the, on the table, um, jokes apart, uh, I would say I'm so lucky to, to work for a kind of really extraordinary insurance group, insurance organization, which is, uh, which is a long heritage. I mean, we have almost 200 years old. Okay. So it's, uh, it's a long journey. And from a transformation point of view, this is, uh, both a fascinating point, huge amount of value created in these 200 years to be safeguarded and to be grown, obviously in the future, but also an amazing challenge. I mean, as you can guess, 200 years is a, from a point of view of mindset is a lot of legacy to be, to, to be changed,

Matteo Cattaneo (02:13):

Uh, the journey. I would say that the journey for me has been, uh, from a transformation point of view, interested maybe by some key steps. I, maybe I can share some of them, and we can delve in if you, if you want. Perfect. The first one I will put on the table is this has been the choice to, um, bring our board of directors. It was 2017 in Silicon Valley. Uh, this experience has been, uh, very useful. I would say that we plan for everything for it, but I would say with insight has been very useful. And it, uh, basically sparked internally a kind of a change also from a top down perspective, which was very, very important for, uh, enabling all the rest. I think that without that, our jumpstart would've been way slower, way, way slower. Um, a second moment, very relevant for me, has been, uh, uh, basically the first steps we move into transformation, which have been, uh, together the la the launch of our innovation lab.

Matteo Cattaneo (03:14):

We call it Lab 1828. So it's our internal innovation lab for fostering innovation. Uh, I can describe it later if you want, but also the corporate venture capital world. For both of them, we suffer from a clean sheet of paper at the time, and just to be really frank, a very steep curve of, of learning, but very, very useful for, uh, creating good seeds that eventually paid off quite handsomely, I would say internally. So our, uh, retrospective is, uh, certainly positive on the, on the side. I cannot mention a third topic, which is inter, uh, artificial intelligence. I mean, the, basically the speed by which to enter our agenda. All, all of our agenda, just in reality, I think it has been amazing, uh, and the quantity of stuff to be done, but also the results that we are, um, uh, achieving with this technology is certainly, certainly important, is certainly game changer.

Matteo Cattaneo (04:10):

Right? So I will say that AI has introduced itself into the agenda transformation, and it's, uh, certainly taking, uh, a lot of chunk of focus on, uh, on our, on our journey. If I, I can mention last topic and maybe last, last step of the, of the journey, uh, is what we, uh, called ecosystem strategy. Why I mentioned it as the last one, because it, it seems also to be like the sum up of everything else I, we've been doing so far. So once we, uh, stabilize our tools and methodology and operating model for doing transformation innovation, the reasoning, the strategic reasoning, and also the acting on the ecosystems came kind of natural. And we started to build on these kind of approaches. Uh, in particular in our groups, we're focusing on, uh, two ecosystems. But apart from the choice of the ecosystems, I would say that the, um, the, the objective, the ecosystem themselves are kind of, uh, results of the rest that we have been, uh, been made making, uh, these steps.

Matteo Cattaneo (05:16):

Uh, I think we can measure the as a, as a key KPII would share maybe with you in terms of results, is that these steps, these steps have been, uh, uh, mirrored in our strategy. So for us, the fact that in these last years within our strategic plans, innovation became from kind of something behind the next hill to something incorporated and intertwined in strategy is very, very important. We've been working quite a lot also on the change management perspective. Uh, our objective was not to build another mothership, but to evolve Mm-Hmm. And modernize our mothership Mm-Hmm. Which is obviously kind of difficult journey, long journey. So we've been working quite a lot on the, uh, corporate culture, uh, change. Not everything went well according to the plan, exactly the first step, and don't take me wrong. So it took, uh, some rework every now and then on this.

Matteo Cattaneo (06:13):

Uh, but I will say that at the moment, we are still on a journey where we are innovating without modifying our DNA, which is, I think it's a positive, uh, positive KPI. And finally, just to close up on this, maybe I would mention that for us has been, for me, especially my role as well, but I mean, none of this would've been happening without the, a clear cut vision sponsorship by our CEO, uh, vision sponsor sponsorship, which is, uh, luckily still there in our journey. But I would say this is a really kind of prerequisite. Without this, uh, it would've been almost impossible to do most of what I mentioned.

Shannon Lucas (06:53):

There is so much I wanna unpack.

Matteo Cattaneo (06:56):

Yeah, I'll just be summarizing. Sorry about the

Shannon Lucas (06:57):

No, it's great. It's great. But before I do that, I'm curious, like how, in your own words, like how has being a Catalyst executive helped you achieve this success?

Matteo Cattaneo (07:08):

<laugh>? Uh, the, the position I'm covering now, and I've been covering for the last years have been to try to be, uh, really impactful, if I, if I can say, would say that my job as a transformation is to, to be an agent in our group in early group for accelerating transformation in action, not just transformation. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. And to transfer, you know, topics of transformation and levers for transformation to action. That's a more complex, uh, activity. Uh, I'm patient, I have to be patient, <laugh> <laugh>, but I mean, resilience apart, uh, it, it's a journey that it entails, uh, um, I would say different kind of perspective, not just skis really kind of perspective. So, uh, I have to be lucky enough to work in an environment, which certainly I contribute to build, but I'm not the only one, which is, uh, an environment that it's ideal for, you know, for innovating and for change.

Matteo Cattaneo (08:10):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and this cannot be easy at times, eh, because you can go through maybe the year which are more difficult than the previous ones, maybe. Uh, there are, in our sector phenomenal regulatory impacts. Uh, so we call it regulatory tsunami, you have to take into account. So it is not always easy to do this. Yeah. What's helping me, I think, in this, uh, endeavor is to, uh, work in the group also in many other areas, uh, quite a lot on the business areas as well. So the, a deep understanding of what is our business or businesses. Uh, so what is the context, the market dynamics, once again, the regulation customer needs. I think it's important for design, well, for being accepted more for designing proper solutions. Okay. Yeah. So you can speak the same language and also the other colleagues of yours can, uh, better, you know, rely on you when you're suggesting the stuff.

Matteo Cattaneo (09:05):

Um, as an executive, I'm quite in a good position to have many dots to be connected. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm very fond of the position that the more the dots, the more likely you are to connect them. Okay. <laugh>, or if you look in the opposite, if the dots are very few, good luck to connecting them. <laugh>. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. So my, my position is, uh, is a one position where I can look very at 360 degrees group. Okay. So I've got a very good perspective across the wide spectrum of situation, which is I think is important. And this en enables me to better do the job and to propose ideas to connect, uh, one area to the other, one data, product to the other. So to do, uh, a horizontal perspective of the, uh, uh, of, of, of this doing, uh, communication, I would say three times. So communication, communication and communication.

Matteo Cattaneo (09:56):

So it's, uh, um, this is very much in line with my CEO approach. We're doing a lot of communication. So my effort, and, sorry, just a big, uh, a small parent is, but whatever I mentioned to you today is done not just by me. Uh, it's not me, myself, it's me in my role and my teams. So we are, uh, engaging ourself quite a lot in communication, uh, which is, uh, awareness is education, is engagement. I think this is very, very, very important. Never stop learning. This is true for me, for my teams. And I would say for, for everybody. Uh, continuous learning is what we mentioned today, as you know. So it's, uh, we had to be big learners. I'm also a fan of, uh, managing a fantastic trade off between very well understand something and, uh, having a better transverse knowledge. I think what paid off in my job has been to deliberately understand, uh, little of a lot, uh, of many things, I would say, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, and then delve into these specific topics where you want to delve, but not to focus too much on a specific topic, otherwise you lose the broaden perspective.

Matteo Cattaneo (11:09):

And this, once again, we go, we go back to the topic of connecting the dots. I think it's, uh, um, we have to, to be translator. So we have to be the bridge between opportunities of change and the business, especially, I would say the, the current business. I wouldn't suggest to expect the business manager managers to be automatic themselves translator in this, uh, this aspect. So we should be helping them. And more than helping them, we should try to forge with them partnerships, uh, because to change something, which is, once again, we've been operating successfully for 200 years. Okay? So, uh, the reason why for a change is to be a big reason why people like to rely on you, trust you. And so, whatever we, as transformation teams bring forward has to be solid and, uh, trusted by, by the whatever we have in front of, uh, of our people.

Matteo Cattaneo (12:04):

Okay. So it's, it's important. Uh, I will say beware of the hype. Um, in our job, we are, let's say, the front runner facing whatever nice is coming to our desk. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, and is, in the last years, we've been seeing quite a lot of stuff that eventually was just a hype. So one thing is to handle this, uh, kind of trends in a innovation lab. There, there is more freedom to, you know, play with them. The impact is just up to the pilot. So you're not scaling up stuff in a innovation lab, but when you start to measure yourself with scale up, then you have to be, uh, a guidance for the group in order to filter what is just a hype or what is fact, a trend that, that you, you should be tackling and addressing and managing. I think this is important because, um, if you do many too many missteps and they can happen, you lose, uh, you know, the loyalty of the people you're working with, which is, uh, I think it's, uh, it's important.

Matteo Cattaneo (13:11):

If I can call also for another catalyst, because we, this is a big question mark we have now, even more than before, is, are we moving within specific domains and topics at the right speed? I mean, let's take AI for example. Okay. Obviously, I mean, nobody's telling everybody to what they're doing on ai, which I, it's understandable, but internally speaking, the question is, are we doing enough? Are we, uh, moving fast enough in this, in this kind of topics or, or not? Because this is, uh, I would say something for us, which is, which is very, very, very interesting. So, I mean, these are the key steps. I would say the key aspect from being an executive and looking for that, do not forget that. I mean, once again, it's a set of team and people that are doing this job at transformation. So coaching them and having them, them growing, uh, professionally, especially internally to the group, it's very, very relevant with, uh, we have a kind of deal with the HR department.

Matteo Cattaneo (14:14):

Uh, we've been having this deal for, for quite a while now. We have, we are kind of, uh, place where we are, new talents for the future, new manager for the future. And so we try also to safeguard also the professional journey of these people, because many of them, not just some of them, many of them would like to go back into kind of a normal business life. But after the, the, the experience they're making with us, that with us, if they're successful, we're trying to help them to grow maybe more quickly than would've been, uh, otherwise the, the journey.

Shannon Lucas (14:48):

How do you identify the people to participate in, in those activities?

Matteo Cattaneo (14:53):

Uh, we are, we don't have a clear filter, to be honest. We have, we tend not to, um, let's say exclude anybody. Um, most of the people that join us in different, okay, sorry. First of all, it's better to say that if you talk about specialties, like data scientists, well, you have to know the work. Okay? So not anybody can do the job <laugh>. But if you talk about, uh, roles that are more kind of manageable, like, for example, in innovation lab, we tend to involve different people from different geography, different gender, different age, because obviously they are, the biodiversity is, I mean, it's very valuable. It's very valuable. Totally. Uh, few people decided to say, I made a mistake. I prefer to go back. Very few people. Luckily, the good thing is that, you know, we're talking about fancy stuff, uh, new ways of working there by design. So it's very easy for people to, to, to accept this. But we tend to have a diverse set of people coming to, into this game. Uh, not all of them are willing to, uh, stay there, but we have a, a small portion of the people of say, roughly 30% that are willing to stay for good in this kind of job. And so we tend to have also different kind of, uh, personal path and professional path for them.

Shannon Lucas (16:12):

Amazing. There's so much that I wanna unpack, but I wanna go back to sort of a fundamental thing that you started off talking about in your journey. You're working for a 200 year old company. Yeah. And you're in charge of transformation, but you're also recognizing, I forget exactly how you said it, but it's like, you know, the business still needs to function. You haven't like, changed the DNA of the business. A lot of our customers, or just organizations out there right now are really trying to balance the, getting the fundamentals right, again, while addressing that thing that you were talking about, like the speed of change is ever accelerating. Yeah. And I'm just wondering like how you're helping the organization navigate those two, those two, like really important paths right now.

Matteo Cattaneo (16:57):

Uh, okay. First the premise, I'm, I'm a lucky guy. I'm working for an insurance group, which is, uh, by the way, quite solid. Okay. So we, I'm working in a sector where we are not lacking resources for, uh, let's say plenty, the seed for the future. And being a mutual company, our perspective is not at the end of the quarter. Okay? We're not quoted. Okay. So, and our DNA in this respect is a long run, DNA, so, right. I, I think this is a, a, a key element, okay? Because, uh, whatever we do in the transformation is, uh, asked for and read by also the, the board of director and the CEO in this long term perspective. And so this is make way easier, the, the challenge you're, you're, you're asking for. Okay. Yeah. Uh, having said that, there are challenges, okay. I, I cannot say that there are no challenges to, to, to be faced.

Matteo Cattaneo (17:57):

So it's difficult to, um, balance the choices. And don't take me wrong. If there is a priority 1.0, this is a prior priority, 1.0, okay? So what we've been doing the last, uh, years has been to adapting as quickly as possible at least once a year. But it could happen, especially during covid more than once a year, our say, targeting agenda for innovation according to what was needed at that point in time in the group. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. So just to give you an example, there have been times, uh, where we deliberately focus more heavily on horizon three, uh, activities while now also because of the ecosystem strategy, we've been lower in this kind of, uh, mix of horizon, uh, mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, no way, any horizon go to zero. But the mix is changing, and this is helping identify solution and speaking a language which is more kind of business oriented.

Matteo Cattaneo (18:53):

Okay. Yeah. Uh, in addition to this, I will say that, uh, some stuff like AI in particular has been a fantastic bridge collapsing any kind of horizon. So <laugh>, I mean, I, I found it very, very interesting. And now with ai, we are in a situation where not only the demand side is way bigger respect to any capacity we can deploy, but also the allocation of the budget is the business people bringing their budget for doing ai, which for me is a fantastic API. If I look backwards to the first, when we started that, we were saying, guys, don't bother without, with ai, we don't trust them in ai. Okay? So I, I think things have been, uh, have been evolving quite, quite rapidly on there. This is how I'm trying to help, well, I'm, my team and I are trying to help the, the businesses in, uh, keeping together the need for change, the opportunity for change, and the, uh, the, the business as usual.

Matteo Cattaneo (19:50):

Maybe another perspective on this I can share is that, um, when we, two years ago, I would say in a structured way, decided to introduce a big strategic shift in the group introducing ecosystems, IE diversification. Okay? So we believe in the need in certain domain. Uh, we've been focusing a lot on the, so far on health and what we call living a property, uh, including, um, energy transition. Um, basically with this new set of strategy direction, the group kind of, uh, safeguarded a part of managerial attention, people and resources in order to do something new. So in this second part, I don't have to keep this kind of balance. Uh, I am more kind of an entrepreneurial challenge to, to be faced because we need to deploy businesses. Okay. I dunno if this is answering the, your career

Shannon Lucas (20:52):

A hundred. It is. Totally. And so there's a follow up question. 'cause I, you brought up AI again, and I was really fascinated about what you said. 'cause you were like, AI is really big, we're super focused on it. And then your next comment was, we have to help as catalyst executives, we have to help the organizations, uh, avoid the hype curves or have awareness about the hype curves. And I'm just wondering if you have advice. I mean, it's so like Blockchain, blockchain, blockchain, and now it's ai, ai, ai. How do you help the organizations navigate those things, especially with where they're focusing their attention?

Matteo Cattaneo (21:23):

I could say that I've been very good not creating hype on blockchain <laugh> <laugh>. Well done, well done. No jokes apart. No, uh, we've been, um, uh, we've been working on this, but to be honest, we made also some mistakes, eh, so, uh, what, and describe is where we are today, but I would say that it happens, for example, on blockchain, uh, for a short while, but it happens. Okay. For a short while. We've been focusing too much on blockchain versus what have been eventually the relevance of the blockchain for the transformation, uh, in our insurance sector. Okay. Uh, um, these kind of missteps helped us in, uh, let's say improving our capability of reading the trends. Mm. Um, but what's working the most, I would say, is that for every trend we decide, uh, in any point in time to use it also on a scale up mode like AI or only, or, or into innovation and exploration mode.

Matteo Cattaneo (22:31):

So for example, AI for, for us is living on both sides. Okay? There is a, a mainstream implementation mode, but there is also kind of exploration mode. Uh, if we talk about, uh, climate change, for example, it's both sides. Okay? Climate change, as you can guess for insurance is not exactly kinda secondary topic at the moment. So it's working on, on both, uh, sides. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, there might be topics in any point in time like quantum computing, which is by, um, just as a clear example, okay. Is by far not a kind of implementation mode. Yeah. But we're keeping an eye on this just to look for this technology, whether they're coming, when they're coming, what kind of use cases from insurance point of view, it would make sense to be working, uh, working on there. So we try to have this kind of two buckets and to keep the trends in these two buckets according to our strategy, and also our, not always perfect reading or what is the right future to be followed, but being nimble and flexible and versatile so that if we encounter a trend and say, no, let's stop it because it doesn't, it's not worth it to bring it forward anymore with such a relevance, such an accent.

Matteo Cattaneo (23:37):

Let's stop it and let's bring it maybe aside. So this is a way we're trying to,

Shannon Lucas (23:42):

Is there specific feedback that you get to sort of where, to inform where that pivot point is? Or is it really just dependent on the thread that you're following?

Matteo Cattaneo (23:51):

There are some soft skill, I would say in this, this, because, uh, I would, there is no validation point in, uh, in the market. Okay. So especially when, when you talk about something, uh, I would say that my areas for transformation are kind of accountable for this and ask for gathering a collective thoughts on the trends so that we make a good synthesis for groups saying, this is relevant or not. We crowdsource, uh, at least once a year, some kind of, uh, uh, comments and voting and ranking by more people than just the people involved in transformation. We use that part as well. But we use that more kind of for the basis of some workshop, uh, for, uh, foresight maybe, but not more, not very much for kind of filtering the trends, because for filtering the trends, you have to be focusing on them a little bit. Okay. It's not just a matter of I heard about it and then I like it, or not. I don't like it.

Shannon Lucas (24:50):

<laugh>, I love chat, GPT. Why isn't AI everywhere? Totally.

Matteo Cattaneo (24:54):

E Exactly, exactly. <laugh>.

Shannon Lucas (24:57):

Um, you've, you've illustrated some, you've outlined some, but are there challenges that, you know, maybe one or two of the biggest challenges that you faced as a catalyst leader? And then maybe what helped you overcome them? And also you can share fails. Everyone always loves to learn from a fail.

Matteo Cattaneo (25:10):

I, I guess this is a rhetoric question, challenges in my job. I'll say this is part of the game. What are

Shannon Lucas (25:15):

Two of the biggest ones? Yes.

Matteo Cattaneo (25:16):

I, I I still have a job and I still do have challenges. Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's, uh, um, challenges. Uh, o okay. Maybe couple of them. One challenge, which is relatively recent, uh, I would say in the last, uh, three, four years, has been the journey toward the, uh, agile working way, agile methodology, uh, as you can guess. But as many player in our sector are still working quite a lot, or used to work mainly in waterfall, through waterfall methodologies. The journey from this traditional waste to the, uh, to the agile has been, uh, interesting and a rollercoaster. And I will say, if I go back and listen to the first, uh, concern raised by our other C level in the, in our group work, kind of, you know, I smile at the moment. I was, I was smile <laugh>. So that, that has been interesting.

Matteo Cattaneo (26:07):

How did we go through these, uh, challenges? Uh, we didn't grow as quickly as we wanted. Okay. First of all, so the, the first ramp up has been slower than expected. We're now moving. Okay. But the first two years have been, uh, quite slower than that than we would've been expecting. We've been acting on, uh, increasing some kind of, uh, actions, uh, the efforts on some action like, uh, education. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, after the first year and a half two, we introduce, uh, heavily now our internal academy courses on Agile. Mm-Hmm. This has been helping, not very much addressing the managers, but especially all other employees creating a good background. Okay. So a good, uh, playground to, to work on. Uh, once again, communication. I will say that we did a lot of internal workshop on, uh, on Agile. A lot of them, a lot of them, uh, what worked the most was, uh, to showcase, uh, early success stories.

Matteo Cattaneo (27:07):

Uh, because I mean, the good thing of Agile is that, and, you know, the outcome are very nearby in time, <laugh>. So it's, they're quick. Okay? So it's, uh, it's good. And what worked very well in our, at least in our group, has been not having people like me showcasing what was working, but having the business people, basically, the po okay. <laugh>. So the predominantly working and showcasing the value of this, because the, I mean, our survey, internally survey on, uh, who was working the IES guys, no way. I go back, I mean, fantastic for me, let's stick to this, to this model. Now we're over the, you know, the, the flex. So we are in a good position. But the first year been a kind of, uh, kind of difficult. The other, I think, major challenge I cannot avoid to mention is ai, as I mentioned, because I mean, it's, uh, it's fantastic the speed by which we're moving, but, uh, at the beginning, AI was, what is it?

Matteo Cattaneo (28:02):

Uh, so we had to start to build something, being careful, because, I mean, AI is a very powerful tool. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, we are, well, we're now entering a zone where we have also regulatory framework to work by. But I was just gonna ask Yeah. <laugh>, it, it wasn't there. So yeah, I mean, in our approach, we, we want responsible AI by, by design. Okay? So it's, uh, there, there are some topics like foundational ai, which have been very, uh, we, where we have been investing heavily, but the people were, we're not seeing this, okay. They were just looking for the use cases. So we had to work on this kind of balance. Um, the good thing is that, I mean, whatever happened also outside of our company has been helping us in raising awareness and, uh, the importance of this. Thanks God. Uh, you know, JI came, came to, came to us not many months ago, and this has been another booster in, uh, creating awareness and urging people, the business people asking to, to do things.

Matteo Cattaneo (29:03):

Now in this, we're quite well positioned from our perspective, let alone the question I posed before, as I mentioned. But we are working on basically with, with two streams. We have, uh, what we call corporate AI solution and use cases. So very structured use cases. That's where you need technical people, multidisciplinary teams, and so forth. But we're also building from a more democratic perspective, like consumer ai. Obviously we're talking about gene ai. And so, uh, obviously our reality, GPT, which is internal copilot, all these kind of tools are very useful for, uh, in the other perspective, uh, working, raising the, uh, the, the activity and the effectiveness of the, of the use cases.

Shannon Lucas (29:48):

Do you have advice for, I mean, because the, you know, particularly in the regulatory, um, environments, I mean, we have a lot of customers, like in healthcare and in the finance and industry, you know, um, insurance industries and the regulatories, they're really there. How are you, like, how are you keeping that space, especially for the consumer one, the corporate one I get like, you guys will have like programs and, you know, you know, projects that you're rolling out. But for this consumer gen ai, how are you helping the organization navigate that?

Matteo Cattaneo (30:16):

Okay. The, um, I would say first of all, the tools are getting better and better. Okay. So from a kind of output point of view, as we know, they are improving quite quickly. And yeah, I mean, if I put myself in a company position of a customer, I mean, it's a fantastic race that we are benefiting. Okay? So I'm not into the dystopic future, okay? I'm not into this kind of a game. So technology's there, and I think it's there for good and even better day by day. Uh, what we started to do was to start with, uh, uh, a first set of, um, 300, uh, um, licenses of copilot in our case. Um, we've been, actually, we see a price in Italy because we're the first ones in the insurance sector to, to play such a structured game. Uh, why we played this, because we wanted obviously to safeguard the way you handle data, okay?

Matteo Cattaneo (31:13):

Because, I mean, there is no way we're against any kinda privacy approach. So we built this tool into our cloud. So, uh, all these 300 people at the beginning could do basically whatever they wanted in a safe way. Okay? So if they plug in customer data, no problem. Okay? It's like if they send it in email, it's not, they cannot get out of this, uh, this cloud, uh, we monitor, uh, because we gave these 300 licenses to different profiles selected by centrally, according to the processes, typically involve it in those roles. And we started to see the KPI, uh, of this, uh, not all the 300 use them, the people who have been using, uh, became quite quickly heavy users with a lot of satisfaction and improving also the quality of inputs prompting, but also the output. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And eventually, uh, three months ago, two months ago, sorry, we, uh, bought a big chunk of additional licenses.

Matteo Cattaneo (32:14):

Now we, uh, our installation is one outta two employees in the group are able to use these kind of tools as well. In parallel, we built a, a conversation, GPT internal, always in our cloud, uh, so that you can really chat like, like you do with HGPT, with gemina, with Claude, with the others, uh, because you can build also on this tool differently from, uh, from copilot as well. Um, I don't think we're going back on this, uh, people are very happy. Uh, we are seeing people improving quite a lot in terms of productivity. Obviously this is not the productivity HR is interested in, but this not, this wasn't our objective. Our objective was to improve the capability of our employees to work better, uh, and to better understand that technology that will come into the game also with the corporate solutions, not just with the solutions. Mm-Hmm.

Shannon Lucas (33:08):

<affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I'm curious, uh, do you have a perspective on how AI might support catalysts and, and the work that they do creating change and transformation in large organizations?

Matteo Cattaneo (33:18):

I use it. I use, I use AI for my job. <laugh>?

Shannon Lucas (33:21):

Yeah. How do you use it? Uh,

Matteo Cattaneo (33:23):

No, it's, um, I, I mean, uh, it's a tool with, these are tools. Fantastic. I mean, AI is a fantastic tool for the value generation. Okay. So if we as a catalyst help in implementing a valuable use case more than one less, I think we're creating a value. And the payoff is there, not just from economic point of view, especially from a kind of a change. I mean, just to let you know, um, one year and a half ago we have been asked by, uh, the C level managing, uh, a part of the insurance business to delegate the activity of AI with data scientists within a train and agile train of, within the claims area, which I think is very, I think it's important not to say, because it's a, it's a good example of a perfect match because when you go in and distribute to make, uh, spread way for, uh, uh, managing ai, I think it's, it's a different value versus doing this centrally. Okay. Yeah. On the other side, I keep using, uh, this kind of tool, the gene AI tools, uh, exploring them. Obviously cautious about the data as I mentioned before, but they're very powerful and they can help you in many, many different things from, for your productivity. So it's a kind of rabbit all, eh, so I, I, and I'm in there. I, I come, I,

Shannon Lucas (34:47):

I'm with you.

Matteo Cattaneo (34:48):

I honestly admitted it's a rabbit all and you, I jumped in there, but it's fantastic. And so I, I think it's important to use them because, uh, they're getting more and more relevant in the answer they can give you. Uh, you are getting more and more able to make good questions as well. Yeah. And so, I mean, who knows where, where will bring us the future on this kind of topic. And there are some concerns, as you know, on this, but, uh, if we look to the positive size, I will suggest everybody in case just to make an additional question to them, because they can open up a different window, different perspective, different, uh, reasoning.

Shannon Lucas (35:24):

Love it. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a rabid fan too. Alright. I wanna go back to something that you said earlier. And this might, it might, it might get you thinking outside of the box, because most catalysts, the majority of catalysts don't stay in one company for a super long time. Um, and they might not also have the amazing, uh, sort of Petri dish that you have with strong board and CEO sponsorship and the financial stability and stuff. So it's sort of a two part question. What would be your advice? 'cause I think what you said earlier about, I was in different roles across the business, I could speak the language, I understood the depth of the business. So when you got to lead transformation, you had the credibility and, and expertise that probably removes some friction. So someone who's entering, you know, brought in as the, the superstar change agent or catalyst, which often happens, do you have advice for them? How to accelerate getting to that point?

Matteo Cattaneo (36:26):

Uh, I would say probably the answer will depends very much on the specific context. Okay. So what I'm saying is to be after that contextualized to, to the specific context. Um, I would say that the, maybe some suggestions, get to know the key people, the key stakeholder, but to know them quite well and let them know you as well. Uh, because, uh, if you create a chemistry amongst colleagues, uh, especially peers, uh, this will help quite a lot, quite a lot. And do not, I'm, I'm saying this because I think it's, uh, wrong to underestimate the fact that a catalyst, especially the beginning of a journey, speak another language.

Shannon Lucas (37:06):

Yeah.

Matteo Cattaneo (37:08):

And so do not serve from the assumption that what you're saying is fully, completely and coherently understood on the, on the other side of the, you know, the telephone. So, mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I think this is a, this is one suggestion. Uh, another suggestion is don't be a tanker. So, I mean, unless your mandate is go there and, you know, <laugh>, do a tank, be a be a tanker, I, I think go there and be progressive with the speed which is compatible with your organization. Uh,

Shannon Lucas (37:41):

How do you know that's really important. I, but I totally agree, but how do you know? What, what are the signs you're moving

Matteo Cattaneo (37:48):

Too fast? Well, I would say, say, first of all, I would say depending on sec, the sector, you can have a, a ballpark of the speed. Okay. I'm working in sector, which by design, actually being slow is a industrial speaking is a value in insurance. Okay? So in insurance, you know, you are not going to be in a speed 300 kilometers per hour. Okay? So if you go another sector, this can give you a ballpark. I think this is in your role, if you, if you are a newent, entry as a catalyst, you should have been doing, or in case you have to do this question quite clearly to your CEO. Okay. Because, uh, uh, she or he has to tell you what is the speedier to run with. Yeah. This, for me, it's very important. I became a catalyst after years of working in the group.

Matteo Cattaneo (38:32):

So I knew the context. I, I wasn't in the need of posing this question, but I think this is very relevant. Uh, the other thing is work, uh, putting together a strategic and tactical approach. So do kind of, uh, in a bi model mode by which you also deliver stuff, not just design them. Yes. Obviously, small stuff, eh, at the beginning, uh, no need for major changes. Uh, uh, at the beginning, I, I wouldn't stress out the topic of, uh, kind of put around yourself talented people, because the job of a catalyst is a by self kind of a sexy job. So it attracts normally quite a lot of, uh, interest by your colleagues. If you are a, an open-minded person and you create a good environment, I don't think that you will lack candidates of colleagues willing to come to work with you. I mean, this has been so far my, my experience.

Shannon Lucas (39:30):

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes the challenges from the catalyst perspective, making sure that it's people who are raising their hand and are actually gonna do things. 'cause it can be, you know, like, everyone's like, oh, I'm gonna get on that sexy train. And then you ask them to deliver and they don't always deliver, which is challenging. Um, I could talk with you for hours, Mateo, but I'm gonna move us to our final fun question, which is, who is your favorite inspirational catalyst, past or present, and why?

Matteo Cattaneo (39:58):

Um, can, can I use two, two answer one quick? Of course you can. Okay. Yeah. No, I will say that, uh, this is a, a true, honest answer for, I think that my real point of reference is my CEO, um, very good bond with him, but especially the matching of his vision for my job as a catalyst transformation manager here has been, uh, really fantastic. So this is the first, uh, point I want to, to, to stress. If I have to identify, uh, other reference point for my job as a catalyst, I would mention, um, we are part of a consortium, it's called Raco is a European consortium made by mutual insurance companies. We are eight. And within this alliance where we have a good intimacy, I was mentioned before the topic of intimacy. There are two or three managers by which, with which we, we are friends by, by now, actually, but that are doing my same job.

Matteo Cattaneo (40:57):

And they are, to me, a very relevant reference because I can confront on the same wavelengths with the same problems. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> with the same, uh, challenges with the same pain. So, but also same successes. The stories, and this has been for me, very, very useful so far, very relevant. It became, they became also friends, as I mentioned. So it's even more than just a work balance, work life. Uh, but for me, working with peers and being able to share my problems, my concern, seeking suggestions, understanding pitfalls, maybe already encountered by the others on some stuff has been a fantastic value for, for my journey so far. So I would, I would mention this too, as kind of a reference figures to, to my journey.

Shannon Lucas (41:44):

I love that. Yeah. We created the Catalyst Leadership Trust just for that reason. It's like the community that I wished I had had when I was in the corporate world. 'cause you need that safe place where people understand you, or if you express your vision, they're not like, whoa, that's too big. They might, you know, help you navigate it. It's, it's super, super valuable. Alright. I actually have two follow up questions. Um, one you've described like one of the best environments, a place where Catalyst can thrive. Great. CEO, the culture, the vision, all of the things. Do you have advice for Catalyst, well, to the listeners, I wanna say those places do exist. I think catalysts, like can get burnt out on companies that, that don't support Catalyst or, or quite the opposite. Do you have advice for how to find those? Like if someone's on their journey right now looking for a place to thrive, what do they look for? How did they find it?

Matteo Cattaneo (42:30):

Um, yes. I, I agree. I, I believe they exist. Okay. I think they exist. Um, I, I think that how to look for them, that's difficult question. Um, I will say if you get to do for the first time a CO of another company, um, try to read also the soft connection with this person. Okay. Because, uh, transformation is not such a kind of deterministic linear activity. And so the soft side probably is good. Um, maybe trying to read, uh, also between the lines. So what is officially available in terms of, uh, you know, value statement, uh, what are the values? Driving a company can give you some means, uh, for example, for the good or for the bad. But because, uh, I mean, if you are a transformation manager, you're also looking for something to transform. If it's already transformed, I mean, there is less need for you. That's right. But this maybe could help in looking for, uh, for, for that, uh, I'm very fond. I'm in love with the insurance sector, and that's why I'm belo, I've been working for many years in insurance sector. So get also yourself driven by, uh, by the sector you're looking for, you're interested in. Because going in a sector you don't like, only because you want a proper environment for becoming a catalyst, it's a choice you have to make. Uh, deliberately you have to be aware of it. That's,

Shannon Lucas (43:51):

That's super smart. Yeah. And, and it sounds like insurance, like being in, in telecommunications, you're like, there's sustainability, there's, you know, ai, like, there can be a great breadth there. Um, do you have a final piece of wisdom for our Catalyst executive listeners?

Matteo Cattaneo (44:06):

Just enjoy the job of Catalyst. I mean, for me it's fantastic. It's, it's fun every day. Really fun every day. And I'm sure tomorrow will be even fun, more fun than today. So it's, uh, <laugh>.

Shannon Lucas (44:16):

I always enjoy your energy. Mateo, thank you so much.

Matteo Cattaneo (44:19):

Thank you very much for having me. Thank you very much.

Shannon Lucas (44:21):

And to our listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to know more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world, be sure to check out our book, move Fast, break Burnout, or go to our website@catalystconstellations.com. If you enjoyed this episode half as much as I did, take 10 seconds to rate it on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcast. And of course, if you have other catalyst in your life, hit the share button and send a link there away. Thanks again.