Matt Alder, Host of Recruiting Future: Breaking Barriers in Recruitment and Work Norms

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I'm Tracy Lovejoy.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm Shannon Lucas. We're the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And this is our podcast move, fast, break ship burnout, where we speak with catalyst leaders about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And we have someone incredibly special here today with us, Matt, Matt Alder, would you like to wave? Hello.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: thank you. Matt is a strategic consultant focusing on innovation and technology in the Hr. And talent acquisition spaces. He's the host of recruiting future, one of the most world's popular talent acquisition podcasts that we were very lucky to be on with him just a few months back.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: he said. 20 years where he has built a reputation as a global thought leader working with employers to optimize their talent technology strategies, and is the author of 2 books. About 7 years ago now he published exceptional talent how to attract, acquire and retain the very best employees. And just recently, in 2022, digital talent find, recruit and retain the people. Your business needs to. In a world of digital transformation very near and dear to our heart in both topics.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: He has also delivered keynote speeches at industry events in 17 countries. I loved that number.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Matt, thank you so much for being here with us today.

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Matt Alder: My pleasure always. It's always good to be on someone else's podcast.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Right. It's got to be a little weird.

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Matt Alder: Ask the questions.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That's true. That's well you can.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: We'll answer even here. We promise.

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Matt Alder: Fair enough, fair enough.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So we had the opportunity to connect with you on your podcast and you did out yourself as a catalyst when we were talking to you, which gave me a huge grin, and so would love to give you the opportunity here to share your lens of your career with that catalytic gaze so would love to hear kind of when you think about your past. What are the moments that you feel incredibly proud of in the drive for change, or have had the most impact.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, it's funny. It's when I kind of look back at the the jobs that I've had and and what I do, what I do now.

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Matt Alder: There's kind of been this overarching theme which has kind of kept me doing what I do now, and kept me in the industry that I'm in, which is fundamentally, I want to fix recruiting. So it's kind of a driver for me and it you know, I've worked for a couple of organizations where

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Matt Alder: I was introducing different types of recruitment marketing. And really, you know, we were trying to be cutting edge. We're trying to do things differently. We were thinking about how you know the Internet changes the dynamics around, how companies market themselves as employers, how people apply all those kind of things. So I had a great time at a couple of companies for a 10 year period doing that. But I think that

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Matt Alder: I kind of finally realized that

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Matt Alder: I needed to do something bigger to kind of do this. And really, my podcast has been running for 10 years now. And it's really been in this last 10 years of my career with everything that I've been doing around the podcast and writing and all that kind of stuff that I feel I'm

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Matt Alder: really making a difference. Because really, my podcast is about finding.

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Matt Alder: you know, the people in the industry who are driving change, finding ideas from outside our industry, about how we can drive, change, and kind of just bringing them together on a platform that people can, that I can share with people where people can listen to these episodes and learn things, or be inspired, and and all that, all that kind of stuff, and it

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Matt Alder: over a 10 year period. I know, because I get feedback from people that it has had a real impact. In fact. You know, a couple of people have said to me recently that they their career grew up with my podcast which is which is just amazing to amazing to hear. So it's kind of been that overarching kind of frustration with everything to do with the industry that I work in. And

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Matt Alder: you know I like to feel now that I'm that I'm genuinely kind of making a difference, and trying to set the agenda and just giving, you know, giving people the information and the inspiration they need to, you know, to drive change because I was never going to be able to do that by myself, working for a single a single employer.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I love that taking us back to that moment.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: What was that like to have this? Hey? I've been here for 10 years. Yes, I've had impact. But I think it's bigger like giving that job up

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: isn't always an easy decision.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, for me. It was. It was kind of a slow fade. I started I started writing a blog about 15 or 16 years ago, when I still had a job.

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Matt Alder: I've got a job now, but a proper job, and it was interesting. I kind of had a bit of a lucky break, because

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Matt Alder: and

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Matt Alder: I was writing this very opinionated blog about recruiting, and I obviously was employed by someone who might not necessarily share my views. And you know, there were a number of people in the organization who kind of I never asked permission, obviously.

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Matt Alder: and there are a number of kind of people in the organization who sort of flagged it up to the I was working for. The CEO, flagged up to the CEO and said, I don't think that he should be writing this blog. And you know, where's the clearance for this and all this sort of thing? And he was either very understanding or didn't know what a blog was. I can't quite work out which one it was. I'm going to go with very understanding

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Matt Alder: and just let me get on with it. So I was able to.

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Matt Alder: You know, test out this kind of thing right? Have an opinion. Write all that kind of stuff in

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Matt Alder: an environment where that probably normally wouldn't be possible. So you know, the podcast the the blog became a podcast over time and it sort of went from there. So it was kind of a bit of a slow fade, soft landing rather than I'm giving up my job now, and I'm going to go do this. Instead, it kind of just merged. It merged into one. But I think I suppose the turning point was making that decision to

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Matt Alder: start a blog without asking for any kind of you know any kind of permission or anything like that, just, you know, just just going out there and going out there and doing it.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I love this story, I think. Certainly in my early days I love biographies, and and I was so drawn in my youth to you know you think about someone like Gandhi, and you're like I can never be a Gandhi, I mean, I'm not pretending like that. But you read the story, and you see how a life that is amazing, and we hold up on a pedestal happens one step at a time.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Right? And so you are making such a huge difference in the work you do like, you said, giving information and inspiration. But it's not like, okay. Today's the day that I am the chief inspirer in the talent, acquisition, space. So I love this of like, be bold, speak your truth.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: don't ask permission. You have the ideas and the things that you're called to do. So start somewhere, and you don't know where it's going to go. And then it's following that energy and going one step at a time.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that also, you know, having that kind of driving force about what I'm you know what I'm trying to do. Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Purpose.

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Matt Alder: Is how I'm able to do so many podcasts. Because, you know, I do 2 podcasts a week. I've done that for 10 years. And people are already asking me how I do it, and I'm not quite sure I don't really know. I just do it.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Do it.

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Matt Alder: It's just like, well, this week I'm publishing 2 podcasts. And it's not, it's not even conscious. It's just, it's just, it's just what I do. And it's, you know, hopefully, we'll continue to to be so until maybe something more effective comes along. I don't know what the future holds, but it's just that. Yeah, it's just it's just. It's just what I do. I think that's the that's the thing.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And it's just what you do. So tell us how you relate to this concept of catalyst right? What does that mean in your life when you say it's just what I do.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, I think I love the concept. I love this whole idea of what do you call it? A friendly troublemaker or positive?

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Matt Alder: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: What's the what was the phrase?

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Positive trouble.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Troublemaker.

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Matt Alder: Troublemaker. Yeah, you know, because I've always kind of. That's how I've always kind of seen myself in, you know, in the kind of things that I do. And I, you know, I just love the concept. And it it really is about driving change. I think that people get we get so locked in as humans into how we think things are supposed to work.

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Matt Alder: And there's always a level of questions that are never

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Matt Alder: and never asked. And I think we see that with recruitment all the time, you know, going through recruitment process and being hired for a job is a universal experience. Everyone who's had a job, has had that experience. And there are cultural norms about that experience that people never question. Why do I have to have a resume? Why is it called a resume? Is that not a French word? Why is it called a Cv in the Uk. That's Latin?

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Matt Alder: You know. Why do we have to have this ridiculous interview where I turn up. I send someone my Cv. Then I go to an interview, and they ask me questions about something I've already sent them, and I don't question it. And you know I'm being very flippant about recruitment. Obviously, processes are a lot better than that.

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Matt Alder: But it's just people who ask those questions about, why do we do this? And.

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Matt Alder: I think it's just really, really important. I think it becomes

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Matt Alder: even more important as the world gets more chaotic and more disruptive. And you know, is moving at a much faster, faster pace, just really

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Matt Alder: trying to understand why things are the way they are.

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Matt Alder: It's just it's just so important, because very often they're the way they are, for some reason that has not been valid for 50 years, and you can look at work like this as well. I did a presentation a few about a year ago about norms around work and things like the the 5 day week or the 9 to 5. All these kind of things. They're all concepts that were invented by someone for a very specific reason. That's now out of date.

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Matt Alder: But whenever you kind of put it out there to the world. Actually, do you know what? Maybe people should work? 4 days a week?

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Matt Alder: The debate and the the explosion of you know, opinion and everything that kind of erupts around that because you're disrupting something

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Matt Alder: that can't be disrupted. It's it's it's kind of illogical. But it just it just happens. So. That's why the world needs people who ask those kind of questions, I think. And that to me is a, you know, a big part of what a catalyst is.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's it's such a great example, because it really brings to life the things that we take for granted. And the fact that, like that little, the little like head tilt as you look at the problem again differently. And you're like, why are we doing it that way? It's such a powerful question that catalysts bring to the world. I want to.

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Matt Alder: Exactly. I just thought of another example. So I live in Scotland, and you know Scotland is obviously

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Matt Alder: various school holidays, long weekends, and all those kind of things, and they're very. I used to live in England, and they're very different. They're different times of year, different things going on. So because of that. I've been much more kind of

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Matt Alder: conscious about asking questions. And it was like, Why is this weekend a holiday?

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Matt Alder: And it turned out it was because because a hundred years ago the kids had to help bring the potato harvest in

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Matt Alder: which is this week. That's why it's a holiday. And you're like, okay.

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Matt Alder: And you know the the world is full of things like that. That may or may not still be useful.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: The power of ending up, even if unintentionally, in different cultural context. And that can be everything from you're moving from one large tech company to another large tech company, or you're moving around the world. But like what that can do for our perspective and just sort of like paying attention to those questions that your brains actually.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Why, there, why are we doing it that way? I'd love to pivot to you, wrote 2 amazing books about, you know, attracting and and retaining the very best employees. More. More recently, as as Tracy mentioned on focusing, on digital focusing, on supporting digital transformation, which also everyone is going through.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'd love to talk to you about how your books relate to the concept of catalysts, and maybe starting off with sharing your thoughts on how you feel. Catalysts could and should play in today's organization.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, I think that both books kind of touch on this. I mean, we don't necessarily use that term. And again, it's because of the speed of, you know, the speed of change. And the 1st book

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Matt Alder: we looked at what is exceptional talent and exceptional talent was people who could really bring value to it to an organization. And that's not necessarily people who are catalysts. But obviously, you know, catalysts are are a big part of that. And in the second book

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Matt Alder: we really talked about flexibility of thinking when it came to, you know, when it came to digital talent. So it's kind of like, what is what is. You know, everyone wants digital talent in their organization, because everyone is going through a transformation. And there's just not enough people with the skill sets that you're looking for around. So how do you?

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Matt Alder: You know, what can you do? And it's like, kind of what can you do to attract those people away from the competition. What can you do to grow those skills within your within your business? Or what is it that's kind of limiting the way that you think about recruitment. It's kind of like you're thinking. I can only employ people who've worked at these tech companies or been to this university or or whatever, and you're massively shrinking your kind of pool of talent because

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Matt Alder: because you're because you're doing that. And it also, I think. And this is a kind of a really important point that most

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Matt Alder: traditional recruitment process processes are stacked against people who are catalysts, you know, for lots of different reasons that so it means that actually.

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Matt Alder: organizations can be filtering out the people who could make the most difference to their organization. And I think we talked about this on my podcast perhaps the most obvious one is

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Matt Alder: we're talking about people who probably move jobs quite often because they get bored. They're looking for a new challenge. And there's a little bit in the kind of subconscious operating manual Manual of recruiting that says, that's a bad thing. You've you've been job hopping. That must mean you're not committed, you know, all that kind of stuff. So there are things that either consciously or subconsciously or systematically.

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Matt Alder: Actually filter out. You know. People who could be, you know, make a massive difference to to those organize, to those organizations.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's such an important point, and I would love for you to talk about both perspectives there. So what is your advice for the talent recruitment, people about how to think about that. But given that, that's the reality. What's your advice for catalyst about how to navigate that.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, it's a it's a good one. I mean, starting with the the kind of employers I think, that

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Matt Alder: we're at a great time with this at the moment, anyway, because people are looking very carefully at their recruiting process for things like bias inclusion. Technology is changing things so more so than you know anytime I can remember.

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Matt Alder: This is this is something that's very much on the agenda. How are we getting the talent that we need? And actually, the way that we've been doing this in the past isn't necessarily the right way. Now, there's a there's a huge amount of progress that still needs still needs to be made. But at least those conversations are happening, and a lot of it is like looking at.

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Matt Alder: You know, what are your traditional filters also, what are your traditional recruitment processes? A real eye opener for me, that I hadn't actually realized that came up on a podcast conversation with someone else on my podcast was in my entire career. I never got a job through a traditional recruitment process.

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Matt Alder: I'm either. I was a runner up and I got the job because someone dropped out. That was the 1st time or I knew someone at the organization who vouched for me, or

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Matt Alder: there was kind of some crazy assessment day that didn't operate under normal kind of circumstances. And at no point did I actually get a job where it was straight up. Here's my Cv, I'm doing an interview. I'm doing a second interview all that kind of stuff. So that was kind of a real revelation. Actually, when I when I thought about it, because it hadn't really occurred to me. Because, you know, I've had all these jobs and that kind of stuff. So I suppose from a catalyst perspective. It is having that level of

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Matt Alder: self-awareness, because I don't think people necessarily realize that it's happening. And I think that there can be.

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Matt Alder: There's a risk sometimes of thinking

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Matt Alder: I'm not getting these jobs. It must be. Excuse me, I'm not getting these jobs. It must be something to do with me. And it's like, well, actually, no, it's just a recruitment process that doesn't. It's kind of stacked against the way that you behave in the way that you think so? If those processes don't change, I think people just need to have that level of self-awareness to say, do you know what I'm not actually at my best in this kind of format. So

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Matt Alder: I need to really think about it. Maybe I just need to do more preparation. Maybe I need to be upfront about various things that I might not be upfront about. You know I don't. I'm sorry. I don't perform very well in these types of conversations. You know, whatever that is. So I think it's

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Matt Alder: It's having that kind of level of self-awareness and realization that it's not the kind of process that you're going to thrive in. So you need to take steps to to deal with that. And if you don't get the job, it wasn't because you weren't good enough it was because the process didn't

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Matt Alder: uncover. You know your zone of genius, as it were.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thanks the corollary to just in general, the feedback that we can get as catalysts. You don't fit the mold. You're always on the outside. You're too loud, you're too disruptive. You're too. This, I think, like having that moment where you can just reflect and be like this is a process that doesn't fit me, and this is neither inherently good nor inherently bad in either direction.

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Matt Alder: Exactly, but.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I do want to push you on because it is so challenging. You nailed it right. It's like, we are starters.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and it's hard to take credit for the tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars that you might have generated because you left before the upswing took, but it never would have started without you, like all of those things that catalysts do that are really hard to talk about. So I'm wondering if you have just maybe a little bit more concrete advice for catalysts in terms of okay. If the traditional processes which are still dominant aren't working for me, what might I do.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, I was wincing when you said that, because that happened to me once I worked at a company, and then I kind of left, and then I know. About 6 or 7 years later I kind of had a meeting with a guy who was the CEO, and they sold the company for lots of money, and he actually said, Thank you very much for starting this process, and I was like great. I absolutely got no upside from it whatsoever. But I'm glad that you recognize I'm glad that you recognized that.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, I mean, it's a difficult one, because I think every you know, every every case is different. But I think, having that sense of this is how I drive change. This is how my style has has created, you know, created something. This is something tangible that I can that I can show you. And I think it again.

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Matt Alder: It's that kind of self-aware, because I don't think we always think about what was our true impact. Sometimes. So I think it's maybe maybe kind of really reflecting on what impact you've actually had, that you can talk about and really relate back to the style of working that you have. I think it kind of has to be.

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Matt Alder: you know, if it's a traditional recruitment process is the quality of those examples that you that you bring. And I think sometimes there is a temptation that I don't want to quantify this in data because it's not finished yet, or it's still going on, or it's not as good as it could be. And I just think it's kind of like what you know. What is it? How can I evidence that

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Matt Alder: this happened, or this continued to happen in a way that just sounds authentic and not like I'm kind of making it up and trying to claim credit for something that was nothing to do with me. But it is really really tough. I think that's the

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Matt Alder: there's no kind of getting away. There's no kind of getting away from that. But.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's great. Sorry. Go ahead.

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Matt Alder: No, I was going to go. I think it's like that. Just that kind of self-awareness. And

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Matt Alder: also, perhaps you know, a sense of being uncomfortable sometimes about talking about things in this, you know, in this particular way, particularly if you think it's something that do you know what I could have been so much better, or it's not finished yet. I don't really want to, you know. I want to bring it up because other people wouldn't see it like that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. And it's endemic in the catalyst not to say that no catalysts have egos, but because we can always see how things could have been better.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's really hard for a lot of this community to really own that this thing exists even because you were there. And then another thing that I've often witnessed is the the need to say we, because catalysts very seldomly create the thing on their own, and in an interview process that can be seen as kind of wishy-washy. And so I think also just leaning into it wasn't perfect, and I can say I did that because it wouldn't have existed. I'm not claiming I did it by myself.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, I think that's a great point. I feel incredibly uncomfortable still, talking about my career in this way, because I've just worked with some brilliant, brilliant people, and you know there are things that I achieved that I couldn't have done without those people, and I think it's kind of almost unnatural sometimes to talk about yourself in isolation, but everyone else does. It.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Everyone else does it so that.

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Matt Alder: Totally.

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Matt Alder: You need to think about, yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Totally. And I mean, really, it could be assigned to the recruiters or the interviewers about this person has a situational awareness and a team bias and a, you know, like collaboration out of the gate. But that's not often how it's landing on the other side of the table. There's a gentleman in our in our community who came to one of our 1st classes when we moved online, and like pretty much immediately after he went through

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: class, he was already a Vp. Of innovation, and he said, I will forevermore know how to articulate my value. Now that I know that I'm a catalyst and I can contextualize it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I bring this up because in the world of recruiting and talent, management and all of that stuff fit is something that people talk a lot about. It's crucial for everybody. But you were hinting at this earlier, which is like, if you didn't get the job, it probably wasn't the right job, anyway, as you're being honest about who you are and how you're showing up.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm wondering if you have any advice for catalysts how to double click on that, because, as I've gone through my own journey, I was like, if I had just asked even harder questions like, if I'm successful and I'm starting to cannibalize the revenue of some of the other lines of business. How are you going to react right like what is your actual appetite for change? So do you have any advice for catalyst about how to find

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: great fit.

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Matt Alder: Yeah, I suppose it's 2 parts of this, I think, going, starting with the the concept of fit again. This is this is something that I'm really seeing employers kind of really pick apart. And it's like, what do we mean by that? And you know very often it can be like. How good was their handshake? What are they wearing? Did they look me in the eye? And it's kind of like hang on a minute. That's just not kind of. It's not kind of relevance. There's a lot of

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Matt Alder: either conscious or sorry, either unconscious or conscious, even worse conscious bias around around that aspect of it. So I think that's that's 1 part of it. But I think, yeah, it is. I think a lot of it is about asking those types of questions because it I think you can go into a job and think, oh, you know I can do some brilliant things for this. This company. It's fantastic, and I certainly had

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Matt Alder: a job like this myself where I was, you know, really excited about it. And actually

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Matt Alder: it was just a bit of a disaster, because, as you say, the way that other people reacted to you know, what I was trying to do was something that I didn't

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Matt Alder: check out, or anticipate or think about in the culture of that business before I joined it, and it was a great business, and had brilliant people in it, but it was not the right place for me to work.

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Matt Alder: and I just didn't even think about that. And I think if I'd asked

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Matt Alder: I was just. It was a cool company. I was just desperate to work there. I was quite young, but I think if I'd ask questions about well, actually, why don't you do this this way, and what it's like? What are the reasons behind? I'm looking at things that I can fix. But I'm not actually asking why they do those things those way. And there were some, you know, I would argue, but potentially not very good reasons. But the belief was that they were. We did it for these very good reasons, and

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Matt Alder: jumping in and trying to disrupt that was was not a good thing, and it's something that

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Matt Alder: I think, asking the right type of questions when they're interviewing me, would have, you know, would have really helped to to uncover. So I think it's an interview is a two-way process. I think you have to remember that. And you have to. You know, you kind of have to try. You have to kind of say, Okay, these are the kind of things that I might be doing. How do you feel about that? And I think that's

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Matt Alder: yeah, that's that's kind of really important.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I think the 2 way process is a really good reminder, especially when you're like really looking for a job. It can. You can be easy to just lean into, please like me, please like me, please hire me. But if it's not gonna work, or you're gonna be miserable, or whatever it's really not.

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Matt Alder: Yeah. And if you're having to look for a job again 3 months later, having had to having had to, you know, being forced to leave it. You're kind of in a worse position. So yeah, I just think it's a. It's kind of really important. But also I think it.

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Matt Alder: It sets the tone, for when you arrive as well, it's kind of like, okay, we're recruiting this person, and they're pretty, you know. They're pretty out there with their questions. But hey, we're going to make that decision, because that's what we want, and it kind of primes it when you know, for when you arrive I think that's, you know, because they could be deciding between 2 candidates like, we've got this, this candidate here who is going to be brilliant very much in the status quo very similar to the person did the job before, or we've got this person who's going to turn on his head.

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Matt Alder: and you would hope it doesn't always happen, but you would hope that the employer would decide that they were going to take that person and support them to do that. But that's a whole nother. Yeah.

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Matt Alder: that's a whole. Another call conversation. But at least there's a fighting chance that it might happen. I think.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That's right. And I love how you shared that like, identify yourself. And this is how I create change like don't be. Don't be shy about the fact that this is the value that you bring, or else that definitely leads to lack of fit.

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Matt Alder: Yeah 100%.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I have loved the advice for catalysts, and now I'd love to flip it to the other side. So your 1st book explores, you know. Finding the and retaining the best employees. We argue, catalysts aren't the only best employee, but they are really critical high impact employees, as the pace of changes is increasing which you mentioned, and so would love to open up our discussion of how can leaders and organizations find these folks bring them in and retain them?

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Matt Alder: Yeah, I think it's something that companies have just been really, really bad at even finding the people who are like that within their own business is kind of a challenge, and I think it just kind of goes back to.

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Matt Alder: I think one of the challenges for Hr. Departments and recruiting departments at the moment is, they tend to be very misaligned with the goals of the business and the strategic objectives of the business in fact.

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Matt Alder: On the podcast last week I was talking to someone who'd done some research that said 18% of those people, 18% of the Hr only 18% of the Hr. Departments they've spoken to were actually fully aligned with the corporate strategy and corporate objectives which.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: What that is, mind blowing.

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Matt Alder: I know, I know. So it.

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Matt Alder: And I think part of that is actually really thinking about

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Matt Alder: what skills do we need to do these jobs. And is this job even the right job? It's just kind of like, what do we? You know, if the company's going in this direction, what do we need to do that? And actually, we need to really dig down into

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Matt Alder: the skills that we need to do that and not just the kind of the the technical skills or the hard skills like the soft skills, the type of person, the the attributes, the all those, all those kind of things. And I think that

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Matt Alder: employers have to do that and make that move, because that's the only way they're going to be fully aligned with the direction and objectives of their business, because

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Matt Alder: you kind of businesses are moving very quickly. They're being very disruptive, and you kind of have to disrupt the roles and the structure and everything to do that. So I think that's the it's actually kind of quite a key strategic point. Because once you do that and you start thinking about

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Matt Alder: you know, skills that you need rather than

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Matt Alder: we need someone, you know, with this kind of background to fill this role. That's when you can really get to

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Matt Alder: these type of people when you're looking at

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Matt Alder: you know, attributes like, you know, things like, you know, learning agility, or you know, whatever I mean. There's a whole list of them, and I'm sure you've got many of these that catalysts have. But so when you're looking at those kind of things, and you know

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Matt Alder: you need that to make change. Then that's how you can do it. So

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Matt Alder: it's as simple and as complicated and difficult as as that. But I think it's really about you know, just looking at recruitment in a very different way, because you're not going to get this on a kind of a very

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Matt Alder: role-based way of way of thinking about it. And it. It's essential as well because roles and skills are going out of date so quickly. So you can employ someone who's a fantastic developer in a certain program language. But in 6 months time that language is defunct. And it's, you know, are they able to learn a new one or for something different? So there's a real kind of yeah, there's a kind of real revolution going on at the moment. I think that's this is a key part of that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's interesting because I don't know the talent, acquisition world and the talent recruitment world. But I mean one of the things you're hitting on is.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: there's a very strong chance. There's a bunch of catalysts already in your organization that aren't being tapped. That might actually be negatively disruptive right now, because they haven't gotten sort of the self awareness that I'm a catalyst. I think differently. The training to bring people along. What's you know? That's how we help organizations is to start with the people who are inside because you've got you might have the culture fit and all of that stuff. What's your, you know advice to organizations. Writ large sort of with that lens.

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Matt Alder: It's to not judge people on the role that they have, which I think happens all the time. It's like, well, they work in this department, and they do this thing. Therefore they can't possibly do this other thing.

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Matt Alder: And the weird thing is is

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Matt Alder: when people arrive at companies and they've been through a recruitment process. You have all this information about them and what they've done in the past, and their events, and all that kind of stuff, and it just kind of gets sucked into the machine and lost. And then people just get viewed in the light of the job. They do right now. So again, it's just really important internally, to understand the skill set of the people that you.

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Matt Alder: the people that you have, and that's not defined by the role that they do. And I've just seen this time and time again, where

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Matt Alder: people with amazing potential can't move departments because no one's ever moved from that job to this job. Therefore you can't do it, or you've got people who kind of like maybe taking a step back in terms of their skills for various reasons, and have so much more to give the company. But then it's kind of like, no, they're at this level. And they do this kind of thing. So therefore, they can't possibly do this. And I think it's that just that flexibility of thinking, that understanding

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Matt Alder: of the skills that people have their ability to develop new skills, and not judging that by what department they work in, or who their manager is, or what job they've had, I think, is again a key part of it. I think the good thing about these are all massive changes and big things, but the good thing is their conversations and changes that are happening in lots of organizations right now, although

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Matt Alder: maybe slower than we'd like. But but at least that narrative is there, and that understanding is starting to develop.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I I want to respond to 2 things that you said there, it's so true. So what we ran a catalyst program last year, and this woman got picked as being a catalyst and curated into the cohort, and the leadership was like that person is a catalyst.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And then they stopped, and they thought about it, and they were like, Oh, she has written 2 books. She does run a nonprofit outside of work, like she had just pulled herself back in and used her catalytic things everywhere. So I think you're totally spot on. And the other thing I just want to like double click on for the audience is when we do these catalyst programs. And they're like, here's an objective. We need to activate our new strategy. And they're like, well, we need people from the strategy team to do those things. We need that level of expertise or something. And you're like.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: actually, catalyst can will find the knowledge and expertise that they need to get it done, and what you don't want to lose, not saying don't have any strategy, people in the cohort, but what you don't want to lose is all of that multi dimensional outside thinking that you could bring in across the organization. So thank you for.

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Matt Alder: I think one of the things that one of the things that resonated with me that you said earlier was.

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Matt Alder: you know, when you move from one company to another. You ask those questions. Why did you do it like this? What's going on, you know. And I think that's the key thing that you can lose if you just put that into the existing structure that just comes up with the things that it's always come up with. It's just like, you know, just because someone doesn't have 20 years experience in this area.

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Matt Alder: they're gonna they could just ask all the right questions that make the that make the difference.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It might be a good thing, in fact, that they're not coming with the history of we failed 5 times. Yeah.

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Matt Alder: Exactly that we failed 5 times, or we've always done this this way. We're not quite sure why the knowledge left left the business about 10 years ago. But we've always done it like this. And so yeah, I think I think that's just a great. It's just such a great point about

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Matt Alder: that kind of almost that beginner's mindset that you're just.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Matt Alder: This, why does this work? Why do we need to do this? And I think it's just, it's just a kind of a really important thing, and you can't do it. If you've been doing that thing for for 10 years, however much you think you can't get that you can't get that kind of external perspective.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing. We could talk to you for hours once again. But as we wrap up today I would love to move to the fun question. We'd love to hear about your favorite catalyst, past or present, who inspires you, and why do they stand out to you?

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Matt Alder: My favorite catalyst is someone who's actually been on my podcast a few years ago and is actually becoming

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Matt Alder: ever more famous. He's tapped on tapped into this audience of younger people on Tiktok is a guy called Rory Sutherland. If you come across him he's he's kind of a he's a behavioral. He works for an advertising agency, and he's a behavioral scientist, and he looks at behavioral science and how that works with you know, with sales and marketing and all this kind of stuff, and he

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Matt Alder: is the epitome of someone who asks those kind of questions, why do we do this this way. What if we did this? What would happen? So he, his content, is everywhere. He's all over Youtube, as I say, he's you know. He must be in his late sixties, perhaps seventies, and he's suddenly kind of gone crazy on Tiktok. So.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That wasn't where I thought that was going. Matt.

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Matt Alder: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Which.

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Matt Alder: Illustrates. You know, the the benefits of thinking like this. So so yeah, he's he's a great guy, and just a great source of of thinking differently about things.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing. Well, I think we have a bunch of things. We need to put in the show notes, certainly a link to that podcast which will direct everyone to your amazing podcast. We'll put links to your books. Anything else. You want us to highlight.

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Matt Alder: No, that's fine. I think. You know, if people people want to want to find me, you can find me on Linkedin, or yeah, just check out the podcast.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Definitely check out his podcast too. Well, thank you for joining us, Matt. It was delightful.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And to our listening audience, thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world, be sure to check out our book, move fast, break, shit, burn out or go to our website at catalystconstellations.com.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And because we know you enjoyed this episode as much as we loved getting to talk to Matt and recording it. Please take a few seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher wherever you listen, and for all the other catalysts in your life hit the share button and send a link their way. Thanks again.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thanks! Again.