Loubna Imenchal, VP at Logitech - Fearless Innovation: Aligning Bold Visions with Executive Goals

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon, Lucas.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm Tracy Lovejoy. We're the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break ship burnout, where we speak with catalyst executives from around the world, about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today I'm super excited to have time with Lubna Imischel. She's the Logitech's head of enterprise business for Africa, Middle East Turkey and the Central Asia region. She's a seasoned leader with over 20 years of experience.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: She's renowned for her strategic acumen. She drives sales, operational management and business development with unwavering commitment. She's the leader of logitech. Oh, sorry logic connect and elevate which I hope we'll talk about a platform that supports women in tech.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: She's passionate, passionately advocating for women in technology. And she's recognized as a female thought leader. She's got a distinguished background encompassing executive roles at industry, leading companies like Johnson controls Jabra Honeywell Fedex. She brings a wealth of experience and expertise to her pursuits, and we're excited to learn from them today. Welcome.

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Loubna Imenchal: Thank you. Thank you, Shannon. Thank you, Tracy, for having me today. Thank you for the introduction. Amazing you covered. It's almost all. I have nothing to add to that. And yeah. And and I'm I'm super happy to to join the podcast. Of Qataris, because it is actually aligned with the purpose of as you mentioned, connect to elevate that I would love to highlight during this podcast

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Loubna Imenchal: because, you you are looking for people who are making changes right? And it is actually what the purpose of connect to elevate. And and as you mentioned Shannon I've been in in since I started my career with multinational companies.

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Loubna Imenchal: Most of them are American, and the industry is completely different. So like it's Honeywell and Johnson Control has nothing to do with Fedex or or Logitech. It's it's

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Loubna Imenchal: 2 different industry like, I would say the Honeywell and Johnson Controller are male dominated 100% companies because they are dedicated to very heavy industry. And then we move to Fedex, which is completely different. And then logitech, which is actually the Hardware Company tech

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Loubna Imenchal: all of them. They are under technology, but different one, right? And during this experience I got to understand the challenges as a woman facing. I know it's it sounds a bit cliche, and people are like tired of hearing that women are facing challenges in the in the industry overall, and then specifically in tech industry, when we are like under 5% as women. And and that is something

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Loubna Imenchal: taking time to improve, and

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Loubna Imenchal: people like you, Shannon and Tracy, you are part of these changes to to give back and to make the voices heard by a lot of people and thank you for that. And that's that's the reason why I accepted actually to join your podcast

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Loubna Imenchal: and and this alignment with our purpose in connect to elevate, which means bringing women to this platform and trying to connect them with the decision makers and also with the investors. If they have projects in the tech industry. This is exactly what we would love to empower, even though I don't like the word empowering, because women she doesn't need the power. You know she's giving birth to.

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Loubna Imenchal: She's giving birth basically right? So, as I always say how you can give birth to a man and then ask him to empower you again. You know it's it's a bit. It's a bit confusing

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Loubna Imenchal: as a nature, right? So she doesn't need. She just need opportunities. I would say she just need to be heard rather than being empowered, because once she has the opportunity. And she's not afraid to take it anymore, because she has other responsibilities in parallel. Then she can shine, and and I'm not saying that only because I'm a woman. But at the same time, last time, as I mentioned, if it was

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Loubna Imenchal: women, I would say dominated industry, I would say, where are the men? Simple as that? Because diversity is is good, diversity is needed to be. It's not something it's not nice to have. It's a must to have when you have roundtable equality and diversity, you have different mindsets, so you have the rich ideas there, and different view

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Loubna Imenchal: covering the whole perspectives. And that's what is needed. It's either on a business perspective or also on a personal level. That's why it is very important. And.

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Loubna Imenchal: as I mentioned before, this is the objective of this platform. And if this industry was like 90% women, we could have talking now about men.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I love. I love the perspective. It's like it's the the non. The agenda, being getting the best outcomes is sort of what I hear from you by being inclusive and intentional about who you're bringing to the table.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm curious. So Tracy and I both had also decades of experience in technology. And when we were, you know, having our pre conversation, you were talking about how, if people look at your journey, it might be a little bit disturbing to some people, and I'm wondering if you can talk about your journey as a catalyst. Now that you understand that concept, and maybe how some of those roles have and and challenges along the way have led you to the work that you're doing today.

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Loubna Imenchal: Well, actually, it's it's my journey is bit like driven by the fact that

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Loubna Imenchal: I'm driven by the change like the comfort zone being for a long time in the same company or in the same role

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Loubna Imenchal: it. It's getting me I I became bored, and when I'm bored. I cannot produce anything anymore. I feel like I'm I'm I'm the one giving more to the company. I'm not learning.

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Loubna Imenchal: and if I'm not learning, I'm not living.

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Loubna Imenchal: I'm not breathing.

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Loubna Imenchal: and and this fear I would say of not anymore feeling alive. It's what drives me all the time to change. And

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Loubna Imenchal: I would say, looking for innovation on daily basis, which which is which is hard, it's not easy, right? It's because when you are looking for the changes. Basically, you are like.

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Loubna Imenchal: how say that starving new information and always visionary always looking for what? Which market I can open new and which culture I can know, and and and and at the same time learning every day.

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Loubna Imenchal: It makes me feel more humble every day, because I feel very, very small in this big world.

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Loubna Imenchal: you know. And so it's not only seeing opportunities where others see challenges right? It's also being inspired to say, oh, my God, how this this is what I'm missing! I'm I'm just like a 10% of what's going on in the world. Right? And you be. I became like

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Loubna Imenchal: humble and also more inclusive, encouraging inclusivity. Because I feel like there is. There is a lot of to learn from each other. from cultural perspective, looking after 72 countries and trying to learn each culture make me more in the in the fact to be, how say that in in tolerance, you know.

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Loubna Imenchal: and and there is no. And then then I figure out like we're all human.

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Loubna Imenchal: you know, and that's bring you that the fact that you you can't judge, because, being human.

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Loubna Imenchal: it should give us solidarity at all over the world. And look what the world is doing, and that's that's that's basically from ignorance. It's not from learning, because the more you learn.

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Loubna Imenchal: the less ignorant you are, the more tolerant you can.

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Loubna Imenchal: So

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Loubna Imenchal: this this is for me what's inspired me on daily basis. So and I and I learned so much, and I've been I would not say lucky, because I, honestly speaking, and, humbly speaking, I looked for this luck.

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Loubna Imenchal: so I was like going and saying, Hey, give me more, I want more. How can I do that and what they said like, oh, you cannot go to Africa. It's very risky. I cannot go to those regions. It's very risky. You what is it? I can't do it. Just test me. Give me so this type of challenge and this love of being always in the challenge.

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Loubna Imenchal: It's more inspiring for me than than being like. I just want to have a title

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Loubna Imenchal: because I could have another title, and flying on my private jet if I stayed. For example, in Fedex, which is, this is what they do, and that this is because of the business, for example. But I was not attracted by that. I was more attracted about being on the field, being with the team focusing on creating more impact navigate, navigating through uncertainty and and dealing with ambiguity.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes, that's.

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Loubna Imenchal: Also is very important, because you don't know everything. When you make decisions and balancing the big picture.

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Loubna Imenchal: thinking with practical actions, I would say to deliver the results.

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Loubna Imenchal: So I don't know, Shannon, if I answer to your question, and I covered that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, a hundred percent. I have a million more questions. But I'm gonna let Tracy ask the follow up question.

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Loubna Imenchal: Please.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I'm gonna give a broad question. But I'm gonna get a little narrow. So in general, we love to learn from catalyst leaders the biggest challenges you have faced as a catalyst executive.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: But before before we dive there, I want to follow this thread of being a woman in technology, especially in the Middle East, and for me hearing hearing your story is so beautiful, something that that

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: really was loud for me in getting to read about you is looking that you have been celebrated as one of 30 tech leaders driving digital transformation in the Middle East in the Middle East economy organization, you know, magazine.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: and it's so shocking to me as I look at the list of those 30 leaders that it is you and one other woman.

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Loubna Imenchal: That's it. Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I think almost every society in the world sees how small women in tech are, but particularly in this list in the Middle East. It was really jarring to see you and Amel's. I believe, Amel Chadley.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I'd love to say her name, since it's just the 2 of you, and so I'd love to understand. What has your journey been like, and the challenges you face as a female catalyst executive in these organizations, where you've grown up.

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Loubna Imenchal: Well, thank you. Thank you, Tracy, for highlighting this. I mean the

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Loubna Imenchal: 1st of all economy in Middle East. They are very, very. How say that the the process of selecting is very. It's very tough

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Loubna Imenchal: the business case that they get. They have to verify the information they have to go deeply, and and as I mentioned to them, I was like.

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Loubna Imenchal: why, we don't have enough women, I mean, they said, like we couldn't find said, come on, they said. Listen, Lumna, it is the truth. In the Middle East we couldn't find. It's either they are in the middle career or it's not. They don't want to show all the case that they covered, or they're afraid of us. We're, gonna you know, go. And and and because we do, we need to do the due diligence, and and so on.

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Loubna Imenchal: And and basically women, they want to be perfect, to to apply or to get to this. I personally didn't apply. They looked for that, and they put it so. They looked for all the information, and and they announced everything. So.

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Loubna Imenchal: as you mentioned, I was very surprised when I saw only Ml. Which is which is coming from

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Loubna Imenchal: Schneider, which is the competition of Johnson control. Basically and they've been looking for women in those specific, very specific industries niche where you cannot find women

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Loubna Imenchal: like. Literally speaking, now, it's changing. I I don't want to be pessimistic. It's changing and and but it's taking a lot of time, because to get to the Vp position or Svp. As I was in Johnson Control, you need to prove yourself, and you need to have a lot of years of experience. And not only experience of.

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Loubna Imenchal: I would say, achievement achievement is is different than experience. You can be

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Loubna Imenchal: 20 years in the same company. But if you do not achieve what the board member is asking you to do, or overachieving it, to make the difference, I will share very, very small example. When I was in Johnson Control, my job was actually to manage the region when I came up, and I said, Look.

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Loubna Imenchal: if you want me to manage it, give me key.

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Loubna Imenchal: I would say achievement that you want me to do. Don't tell me only managing. What is the Board member is needed? The board member that they're based in us in Milwaukee. What they want. Right?

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Loubna Imenchal: They said. Luna, we want you to improve the margin of the region. That's just an example, Tracy. And I was like.

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Loubna Imenchal: Okay.

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Loubna Imenchal: how can I? I have the way of how to do it. However, it's not aligned with the company locally.

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Loubna Imenchal: you know. This is just to show you the mindset. Because I said, why the previous Vp. Who was an American guy, very smart guy

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Loubna Imenchal: in the same position as mine for 8 years, and he couldn't do it.

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Loubna Imenchal: they said, Look, Lubna, come on with your proposal and let us know because he was executing, and that is the different mindset someone is executing. And when I came, humbly speaking, I didn't want to execute.

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Loubna Imenchal: I wanted to make the difference. So this mindset of coming with an idea and say, Hey.

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Loubna Imenchal: don't tell me I am in this position to do? 1, 2, 3,

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Loubna Imenchal: this 1, 2, 3 is the basics of the job. But what can make me different.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That is what I'm looking for.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I'd love to to double down here because you're pointing to attention that a lot of catalysts struggle with. So you mentioned that we need a history of achievement. And as we talk about Johnson control, it's what the Board is asking for, which is not always what catalysts identify as the change that would be beneficial

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: sometimes what the Board is asking for in the achievements are really different from the change a catalyst identifies.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: How do you straddle that and still get the achievements that matter to the board?

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Oh, did we lose audio.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You? That was my question. 200%.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Oh, my gosh! That's hilarious!

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I mean, there's a nuance that I'm curious about, which is like the the achievement and the humility like cause. We can also.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That's true.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's that's the follow up if we get to it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Can you hear us? Can you hear us.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Check check.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm going to pause.

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Loubna Imenchal: Last thing that I thank you.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I love so many elements of what you're pointing to, and there's a really common tension that catalyst experience within part of what you're telling us that I'd love to go deeper. So

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: you mentioned that we need a track record in our experience of achievement, and in particular, you pointed to what the Board is asking for. Right and often catalyst tension is that there's what the organization is telling us it wants. And then, as a catalyst, it's what you see is needed, either given the vision they have in place the strategy, what you see happening in the world or the marketplace.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And so you mentioned both things right and earlier. You said I'm driven by the change, and it's kind of dangerous when I'm bored.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So how do you balance the fact that you know you need to achieve, aligned to what those in power are asking.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: and as a catalyst, seeing what other people don't see, and therefore are not asking.

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Loubna Imenchal: I will give you. I will share with you 2 examples, and I and I find out, like sharing examples, is the best way of explaining things. So

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Loubna Imenchal: the the mindset can start, not only as a Vp or Svp. Or high level position, because the mindset started with with the beginning, like how how you see things as a person. Right? So, for example, in Honeywell, when I applied for Honeywell.

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Loubna Imenchal: I was rejected 5 times.

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Loubna Imenchal: literally speaking, why? Because the the job description was specifically designed for someone who has engineering background

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Loubna Imenchal: and the mail those 2 elements. It's back in 2,008.

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Loubna Imenchal: Now, you cannot precise that you want a May right, but back in that time it was allowed, indirectly speaking, so the agency told me. We cannot hire. You are coming from Fedex. You are coming from Alcatel mobile phone.

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Loubna Imenchal: So what do you want to do within Honeywell? You are not engineer, you are not. Why you want to be a country manager for a company that you don't even know what they are selling as solutions, because it's very close industry. And I was saying, Give me 10 min with your clients.

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Loubna Imenchal: which are the actually the jury hiring from Honeywell 10 min for them if I don't convince them that I'm not right the profile, then you have nothing to lose. Present all your candidates, and give me 10 min, like, literally speaking, 10 min, not more, not 15, not 20. And they were like, Okay.

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Loubna Imenchal: by the end we're gonna ask our clients if he wants to meet with you. And they ask the jury member, and they told him, Hey, there is a lady she wants to meet with you. She has no background from your industry. We do not recommend her

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Loubna Imenchal: as an agency, but she's insisting to meet with you and guess what. When I met with those people, they said, oh, she's insisting. Okay, let's meet with her. If it's 10 min we still have time. Okay? And I've been lucky because they give me this 10 min, and I told them, listen.

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Loubna Imenchal: I know that you are hiring country manager for Morocco back in that time.

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Loubna Imenchal: I am Moroccan. I'm based there. I know this country very well. You are specifying this and this and this in your job description, however, the one that you need because you have no one

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Loubna Imenchal: and you don't have offices yet. You need someone who's gonna open the door for you in government sector, in healthcare sector, and in this once I open those door, then I can hire people who can execute my strategy. And I don't need to know your product product in detail, because the people that I'm gonna talk to they don't know the product

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Loubna Imenchal: they want. Actually someone who can represent American company in a better way and have a win-win relationship from partners, from end users. And then they said, Wow, we didn't think about this like that, I said. If you bring someone else who's coming from competition, he's gonna do the same thing. But he's gonna expect you to guide him.

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Loubna Imenchal: Can you guide someone in a market that you don't know?

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Loubna Imenchal: They said, no. And I said, This is it. You are based out of us, based out of Europe. You have no idea about this market.

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Loubna Imenchal: You have no idea about the go to market strategy and the person that you are bringing from the competition.

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Loubna Imenchal: She will need your support because he's used to work in this environment. He's used to have someone giving him all things. So we are checking the boxes without seeing without being market driven. You are a product driven approach completely different. So the guy likes my speech and my way, and about 9 min, and I said, I have only 1 min left. Do you still want me to continue, or we're gonna stop it here. It's up to you.

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Loubna Imenchal: Then they said, Look, you know what we want to hear more. So I said, This is how I'm gonna do it. And I have no idea about your products, and I gave them the right way of how to do it. That started back in 2,008.

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Loubna Imenchal: So I was used to that, and I got promoted full time within Honeywell

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Loubna Imenchal: every time that I'm looking for a promotion I don't even expect it, because I bring ideas to the management. And I say, hey, this is how I look at it. I'm not afraid to share with you. This is the market. The key idea here is always to be market driven

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Loubna Imenchal: and never product driven. Once you are a product driven person, you are closing

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Loubna Imenchal: all the stores and thinking from your own perspective, without bringing any innovation to the table, from leadership, perspective, or from go to market strategy. You cannot have a go to market strategy based only on your product.

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Loubna Imenchal: You have to include the one who's buying it. And when I came to Johnson console, it was the same. I said, Okay, what the board member means, what what is important for them. They say the profitable business. I said, Okay, how do you want me to make profitable business when I'm selling solution, that they are dedicated to us markets.

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Loubna Imenchal: I said, well, this is what we have, I said. No.

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Loubna Imenchal: we have to adapt our solutions, and I'm gonna open. A manufacturer in India

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Loubna Imenchal: is going to produce for me and another one in Saudi. That's gonna produce for my market. And this is how I'm gonna make the margin, not in the way that you used to do it, because the the guy that he was before me

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Loubna Imenchal: he's a very smart guy, but he was afraid of bringing this to the table. And I said, Guys, if you want to hire me.

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Loubna Imenchal: this is my my, actually conditions, because I want to be successful in this job.

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Loubna Imenchal: Either you allow me to be it, or you are making me to be everything to fail on it, so I cannot accept. It is that it has to be a win-win relationship. And then they said, We cannot give you those

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Loubna Imenchal: project, Lubna. Sorry we cannot give you this investment. We don't know you yet, I said, fair enough.

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Loubna Imenchal: Give me 6 months. I go to my markets.

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Loubna Imenchal: I observe it, and I bring you all the list of the orders with the specific orders.

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Loubna Imenchal: Those specific orders will give you actually visibility on what I want in my markets.

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Loubna Imenchal: And believe me, if I manufacture them locally.

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Loubna Imenchal: everyone is happy. It's local manufacturing

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Loubna Imenchal: customer is happy because he's encouraging local economy. He will buy product that is aligned with what he wants.

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Loubna Imenchal: and you are going to be happy because I'm gonna create margin for you.

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Loubna Imenchal: So for me, it is very simple, because it's about logic, right?

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Loubna Imenchal: The the challenge here, Tracy, to answer to your question is having actually the courage

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Loubna Imenchal: to go and say that to the people and say, Hey, I'm not gonna work for you until we align for this and this because usually people, they take the job.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Loubna Imenchal: This is a job, and I want to be in a Vp. Or Nsvp. Or whatever. But I wanted, and I was like telling them, hey? I don't want to join the company just to get the title. I wanna succeed in my job.

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Loubna Imenchal: And the way of succeeding is to make you profitable, and also to succeed in my mission. It has to be aligned, and that's.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Be aligned.

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Loubna Imenchal: I mean, yeah. And at the perfect time to do that

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Loubna Imenchal: is not after you've been in the company is in the beginning, because otherwise it's too late.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's too late, cause they think that they're hiring a widget sales.

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Loubna Imenchal: Exactly.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And you're like, I'm gonna bring you a strategic market, you know. Strategy, that strategic strategy. But I love what you're talking about, too, because it's like there's the what people say that they want. And the Board probably even said we want more profitable business.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So. But what you did was challenge them on with your deep market, sensing the dot connecting the cultural, understanding that you were bringing to the table, you were addressing something that they knew or wanted in a way that they hadn't thought about yet, which I think is really important. Going back to Tracy's question, because it was like, there's often a stated intention from the leaders at the C-suite or the board. But the thing that catalysts need to recognize

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: is that thing that you're working on potentially just another way to get at that and I think you know also always leveraging like, you know, when you're when you can leverage what the customers in the market are saying that it doesn't even have to be. Luna. Thanks, it's like you said. Here's the orders from the customers like. Don't take my word for it. Here's here's how we got there.

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Loubna Imenchal: And the funny thing is when we custom when we start customizing the product, I said, Listen, don't put a price.

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Loubna Imenchal: I talked to my product managers. And they said, what I said do not put price. I just want excel sheet. Let the customer check what he wants, which I would say, sq, you want. What is the things that you want in this product?

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Loubna Imenchal: And he let him put the price. Guess what the customer was putting double the price that my team was intended to be.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing articulation of Value.

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Loubna Imenchal: Yeah, this is how how I got my 1st award with Johnson control. It was about margin, and it's very short timing. Within exactly 11 months.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and I think it's important because early stage catalyst. And this is why it was interesting, like looking what you had. You know, what you're sharing out in the world going back to? You know your, is it? Connect and elevate is, you know, when we're junior in our careers catalyst. We don't always think with that sort of bottom line, hardcore business sense, which is something that I know you're talking to as you're communicating with your audience because it's like you need to be aligned to the business.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Lubno. We could. I just want to be respectful of time. This was an amazing.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and Tracy and I have so many more com questions, so maybe we can have you back on but thank you so much for sharing your your insights.

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Loubna Imenchal: Hey, Trace, you are on mute.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: It has been such a joy getting to know you and to hear about the very important work you're doing. And I agree with you. I love how you landed everything with really concrete examples. It has really been so useful to the audience. Thank you.

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Loubna Imenchal: Thank you so much, Tracy. Thank you, Shannon, for this invite. I'm super excited to answer to all your questions, and, honestly speaking, sharing with you all this information and examples. It makes me remind, because, you know, when you are in the field, you don't realize what you're doing right until you keep repeating it to yourself or to someone amazing like you to share this experience and make it an example, because

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Loubna Imenchal: sometimes I took it for granted right. And it's it's like normal things to do. Then I realize it's it's taking. We're talking with a lot of women and people around. It is something that built in mindset that you more

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Loubna Imenchal: getting the to how say that to

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Loubna Imenchal: not being afraid of talking? That's the key point of sharing, because the ideas believe me, a lot of people. They have them a lot of people. It's not like something. And you, it's just the environment, the conditioning and how we've been educated also cannot let you think out of the box because you think that this is it, and we need to execute it. It's not true. A lot of leaders are looking for someone who's gonna come and bring

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Loubna Imenchal: new ideas, not necessarily come in and start firing people to make the margin, because that's what people think. It's not true. It's not my my way of doing things. There is a lot of opportunities in the market to look after them.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Well, thank you for being out there and speaking with courage, so that other women can be emboldened as they see you do it, and learn from the steps that you've taken. It's a joy.

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Loubna Imenchal: Thank you, Tracy. Thank you, Shannon. Do you want another slot for continuing? Or do you think it is

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Loubna Imenchal: enough.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world, be sure to check out our book, move fast, break Shipburn out, or go to our website.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Hello, other person@www.catalystconstellations.com.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: If you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did, please take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and of course, if you have other catalysts in your life, please hit the share button and send a link their way thanks again.