Jackye Clayton & Katee Van Horn (Inclusive AF Podcast Hosts) - Challenging the Status Quo: A Deep Dive into DEI Leadership

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I'm Tracy Lovejoy.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm Shannon Lucas. We are the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst, to great, bold, powerful change in the world.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): This is our podcast move, fast, break ship burnout, where we speak with callous executives about ways to lead successful transformation, large organizations. And we have 2 folks that not only can speak to it in their own work, but in working with others. Today we have the host of the world renowned, inclusive. Af. I have to be careful not to say it, because I will by accident, inclusive Af podcast

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): as well as many other podcasts. I believe, given that there was a Linkedin live this morning. So we've got the Vp. Of talent, acquisition, and deib at Textio, Jacky Clayton and the chief people officer at Web pros. Katie Van Horn

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): love to have you both have the chance to tell your story as way of introduction. And so, Katie, I'm gonna tap you 1st

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): tell us about your journey, introduce yourselves and help us. See that catalyst inside of you through the years.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yeah. So Katie Van Horn. I I I think that my catalyst journey actually started at birth because I'm the youngest of 7 kids. And so you know, you kind of have.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Wow!

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): So like, just eat and like it's good and like get heard. And all of these things when there's 7 of you. So it. It's a very in early introduction to being a catalyst but you know, from a career perspective, I have had the opportunity to take on some really amazing roles and and

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): truly break shit. So you know, I think that's that's 1 of the things that is, it resonates with me so much is being able to go into an organization and just say, what's wrong. And how do we fix it? So? Couple of highlights, you know, when I moved into an internal Hr role. So I was. I started as a we baby recruiter on a desk at a deco and then moved internally to

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): organization and was able to take on both a recruiter role and a Hr. Business partner role. It was a combined role, and even that was like kind of a. It was a new concept for Chase. It was a new concept like, how do we actually do this? And I don't think I slept for about 2 years. Because it was, you know, going going, and just trying to get everything. Figure everything out and I was new to Hr. Enough that I was like, I just don't want.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): make any mistakes and break the law. Do anything like that.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): you know the the most recent role that I'm in that web pro, chief people, officer. We are building, basically from the ground up. You know, an Hr organization that we want to have that, you know, has the right tools, have the right thing for our team members. And and so really, it's about not just being a catalyst, but bringing the team along as catalyst as well, you know. I think in Hr. All of us have been kind of trained to

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): be slightly robotic, and be, you know, very black and white. Everything has to be this certain way, you know. I just mentioned, you know, being a baby Hr person and wanting to follow the law, but also you have to operate in the gray, and you have to be able to push those boundaries of what can we do? And how do we make this employee experience better? How do we just make things better overall for our people? And so it's also, you know, bringing that kind of next generation of catalyst into the conversation

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): to say, you're allowed to make mistakes, you're allowed to break things and just make it better. Just learn from it and grow as long as we are creating something that's awesome for our folks.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, and I'm gonna turn it to Jackie. So this isn't really a question. But it's, you know, like, so, Katie, when are you gonna become the president of Sherm. When are we ready for Hr. To to take that as their core perspective? Just saying.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yeah, I feel like we have the right person in mind to lead Sherm soon. But he's actually there right now. He might have been on that Linkedin live with Jackie this morning, you know. We're not naming any names, John Baldino, but you know, anytime.

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Jackye Clayton: He's ready.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Anytime. He's ready.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Well, we'll be excited to engage once John's there. But 1st alright, Jacky, over to you.

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Jackye Clayton: Yes. So I think, yeah, kind of like Katie. I I think I was born into being a catalyst. But as we flash forward to college. Part of the catalyst

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Jackye Clayton: part of me started when I decided to quit college because I didn't like it like it was just like I didn't like it, my dad said, but you like nice things, and I said, I will figure it out. And he was like, Okay, and so I had to look at what I had in my

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Jackye Clayton: quiver in order to get designer clothes when you're 20 years old and your parents say we're not gonna pay for it since you quit college. So just having to figure those things out. But then, also, knowing that

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Jackye Clayton: the deck was already stacked against me, so now I don't have a degree. I don't know what I'm doing. And I and every opportunity I had was built through late relationships and getting people to give me an opportunity to do something that I was never qualified for. So

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Jackye Clayton: started with a technology. And I was a business analyst for technology. And in a desperate attempt of of

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Jackye Clayton: fitting in and being able to have that growth, and having the most money that ever made in my life, I just did whatever they asked me to do, and I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to be able to do any of those things. I just knew that they gave me those things. And I thought since they gave me these tasks.

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Jackye Clayton: that that meant that I should be able to do them because I didn't know what a business analyst did. But that was my job title. So that included

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Jackye Clayton: developing training programs, the whole y 2 k program for an organization with over 5,000 people rewriting

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Jackye Clayton: people's content because we weren't going to be able to afford the book, and we had to go do company wide trainings like I didn't know anything and started doing those things. I took time off to have my children, and I stayed home for 4 years, but sold Tupperware, and then decided to go back to work knowing that I had 4 years out of the it space.

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Jackye Clayton: and I

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Jackye Clayton: put my Tupperware sales on my resume. And that became relevant because I

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Jackye Clayton: got a phone call from Robert Hat after I posted my resume like on Monster and their recipe for what they were looking to bring to the table where people who had technology and sales experience to understand how to be a recruiter. So again, I got recruited into another role that I was not qualified for, but had something that people saw as being able to grow so

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Jackye Clayton: started doing that. But at that time this was like in the early 2 thousands people had started looking at, especially after, like Ytk, we were looking more for technology. We were looking at Web 2 didn't have a lot of talent, and people started asking the questions of Where can we find

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Jackye Clayton: talent which brought a lot of conversation about people from underrepresented groups, but the way that they wanted to do that, and the way that they were being taught, they meaning experts and recruiting that were were showing new recruiters how to find that talent.

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Jackye Clayton: Were things like. Oh, they had to have gone to an Hbcu, and I just told you I was a college dropout. And then they were like, Oh, or they're a part of sorority or fraternity, which obviously I wasn't part of those things. They would look at common surnames, and my name is Jacqueline. My maiden name is Jacqueline Forster, which is not a popular name, and my married name is Clayton. So all the ways that they were training. I was never gonna be able to be

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Jackye Clayton: found so selfishly. Originally it started so that I could get selected, even without a degree without uncommon surname with black women or being in those organizations. But then figured out, I I started working hard and trying to develop those things.

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Jackye Clayton: and so I felt like I I didn't find the silver bullet, but I felt like I kind of came up with some solutions, but people were not making the hires, even though I was finding the people. So then it became again.

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Jackye Clayton: really writing, talking about it openly and getting validation from the Internet cause. I didn't know what I was dealing. So then I got that validation and started writing, not knowing that it was permanent. The Internet and people were asking more things. And so I was sharing more opinions and then

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Jackye Clayton: kind of started writing more about it, discovering more about the technology, and then started working in the deib space and the talent, acquisition, space. And so for me personally, because of the journey, it's hard for me to separate those things, and so the majority of my most recent career has been very nuanced in talent, acquisive talent, acquisition for Hr. Tech startups like it's very

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Jackye Clayton: niche. So I always say to 25 people. I'm an F in bad ass, and the rest of the world is like you do what you do. What? What? Why.

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Jackye Clayton: but it's very nuance, and I think during that whole thing it's been all about breaking things, figuring out and iterating, in order to being able and publishing my results, to show that

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Jackye Clayton: I know what you're thinking.

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Jackye Clayton: I'm not qualified. I don't have my degree. I don't have this this this. But let me tell you what we did. Let me show you the impact. And so that's kind of been the pattern throughout the years to bring me where I am today.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love it just, you know, kind of hearing from both of you what's wrong, and how do I fix it? Breaking and iterating and publishing the impact. 2 amazing bumper stickers for the catalyst audience. So thank you.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And clearly, it's being woven into the stories you're telling us, but would love to hear from both of you. How do you relate to this concept of catalyst? And how does it support you in your executive roles today? And so, Jacky, I'll tap you 1st

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): this time.

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Jackye Clayton: Yeah. So when I think about it, I

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Jackye Clayton: I

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Jackye Clayton: I feel like all of we. It goes against your natural like what your body tells you what your brain tells you, that what you need to do moving forward in in being a catalyst, it's going against the norm and bringing out the things that we're need needed. And so.

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Jackye Clayton: because of the dib work and studying into that, what are your biases? What are the things that are coming up. I recognize when something is going to take me in a bad direction, and that I need to turn around. And so it's like, okay, if that's happening to me.

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Jackye Clayton: It's probably happening to everyone else. Why am I feeling these things? And so I started leaning in learning to lean in to my brain cause it's either gonna protect me or keep me from something great. And a majority of the time it's keeping me from something great. And so I just wanna like started leaning into that. And I think that's what's happened at work. It's like

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Jackye Clayton: trying to figure out, why are we doing the things that we're doing. And so when I think about, I think that it's like you need to take a pause, and it has to do with, why do you do the things that you do. Where did you learn that from.

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Jackye Clayton: and are you doing it because of something steeped, in fact, or is something steeped in fear.

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Jackye Clayton: And I think that's how I kind of look at that just that

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Jackye Clayton: catalyst frame of thinking of of a bit. So that's where I I kind of lean into that.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And it supports you. Then it sounds like it's it seems implicit in what you're sharing, that this is how you operate.

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Jackye Clayton: Yeah, I mean, it's I think, that it was really not

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Jackye Clayton: the. I always say that the best gift I ever gave to myself was quitting college because nobody told me how to do it, and I had to figure it out.

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Jackye Clayton: and I've always had kind of I still feel that way. And and Katie can tell you, and I'm I'm also just slightly delusional. I'm the one that's be like I'm gonna climb a mountain, and Katie's the best friend that'll be like, do it

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Jackye Clayton: absolutely. You're gonna do it. You're gonna kill it, you know. And we'll be there when I say, oh, I changed our mind. She's like, Okay, okay.

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Jackye Clayton: But having that support it that I do lean into that. And I. So I I

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Jackye Clayton: oh, I'm always looking for opportunities to go against the grain, because I know once I do that it helps me to stand out and other it helps offer other solutions, because I'm not going to be the only one i i just volunteer as tribute.

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Jackye Clayton: Take give it a go.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Look. I.

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Jackye Clayton: Quite scared.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): You already talked about your quiver. So you're good. You have.

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Jackye Clayton: Right.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Narrow. That's all you need really.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, yeah.

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Jackye Clayton: The Olympics are coming up, and I've been watching like all of this.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yes, right?

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Jackye Clayton: Sales, so.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Amazing. So, Katie, how about for you?

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): So I got some really great advice early in my career, and it was, you know, anytime that a project comes up anytime that there's an opportunity to do something that scares you, or that you haven't done before. Take it

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): and jump in and learn it so similar to you know what Jackie was sharing earlier. It's, you know. I don't know how to do this, but I'm gonna figure it out. And there's Google. And there's, you know, a lot of people around me that I can go. How did you do this, or how does this work? So for me, you know the the relationship to this whole concept of being catalyst is taking on anything that I can just to learn and grow. And you know I've been in Hr. For

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): at 25 plus years, and I still tell everyone that. Well, listen, Jack and I talk about this with Dei all the time that we're still learning. We'll we're still growing. There isn't an endpoint to learning. And so you know, for me, that's that's 1 of the pieces, and I think the the other piece is

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): being able to step back from situations and look at.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): look at them from a high level and go.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): yeah, this is what's broken, or this, what is what we could make better, even if it's working. Is it working the best way that it could? And so, you know, I I was that person that was always on every review I had in my twenties. It was. She's very direct in her communication style. She's aggressive, you know all those words that now we say, don't use those on your review forms especially for women, you know. And but I was that person that got that feedback.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): So when I was at Godaddy I had the opportunity to work with some amazing amazing women

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): at the Claimant Institute working on, you know, how do you do a review process that is consistent and fair. How do you think about the language that's used in reviews? And you know, and we truly broke what the way that we were doing the review process. And that was right around the time that everyone was saying. Oh, we're throwing out the review period, and we're not. We're just, gonna you know, randomly select how we give out merit. Now, it's like that's not

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): that won't work. But okay, go with that. Let me know when you come back to the to the dark side soon. Just let me know. But it was one of those things that I was able to work with them and just listening to them, learning from them of how do we change things to make them better for marginalized groups, for women, and especially being in tech.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): I've been in a lot of rooms where I am the only woman in the room, and I also built a team that was

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): absolutely freaking, amazing. And you know, one of the women. At 1 point we are in a leadership meeting. There was the top 250 people in the company like leadership wise. And she sent me a text message, and she said, there are only 2 black people in this room.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): and and it literally like it was a gut punch for me. And so it was one of those things that, like we have got to fix this. We have got to change this, how can we start to move this needle in a different way? So you know, I I think for me, it's having people that are going to tell me the things that they see that are broken, that maybe I just don't see or am not aware of because of my privilege, or because of

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): the way I'm looking at the world. Jackie's very good at this, telling me as a white woman. Can you please fix all of the things, and I try to do that. It works out well that I speak for all white women. But not really.

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Jackye Clayton: You've left some off the list. Yeah.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely but

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): having those people around you that also challenge you to say, How are you gonna make this better. And it's not someone else's problem. It's you need to fix this, Katie. You need to fix this as a catalyst. What are you gonna do.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amen, being an anti-racist, totally.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yeah, it's a good thing. Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, okay, I'm gonna go. Hi, and then I'm gonna go low. Because if you guys are just listening, and you heard Jackie stories about her fashion. What you are not witnessing are her amazing glasses that just like exude coolness. So I just had to call that out. But now I wanna take it.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): That's actually a tame. The pair that she has on today is actually pretty tame, so multicolored. We've got ones that have crystals on that we have all kinds of stuff. So, yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I like a sparkle.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yes, yeah, yeah. She'll. She'll show you. Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm going to see Diana Ross tonight with a bunch of girls, and everyone's like, what are you wearing? And I'm like, I'm wearing sparkles.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): All of that. Yes, yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: All right. But now I want to go back down to kind of like the tough part. You know, Jackie, you're like I took, you know that sort of an advice, and something that you lived was like being the standout, like, you know, pursuing those things where you stand out, and you took the risks, and you kind of said the same thing, Katie, which is like, take those learning opportunities, the challenges

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: there's

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: with all of our different backgrounds. You know, there's this intersectionality of like, I was a woman who is always the only woman in the networking room, right network network engineering and the pressure to perform

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: as like establishing the credibility. Maybe it was self-imposed. I don't know, but it was like I always had to be better then.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Hmm.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And so there's this. I'm wondering if you have advice, because if you come from a marginalized group that just gets amplified even more, you have to be more buttoned up, you have to have more right answers all of the stuff. And then when you go and you take the things where you're not sure you can do it, and the risk is higher.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: it can come with even more intense pressure. And so I'm just wondering if you have any advice, for, like how you navigated that, or how someone might navigate that kind of conundrum.

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Jackye Clayton: Yeah, I'll start. I think the biggest thing is is trying to be transparent and have the conversation. So you understand what the expectations are in advance

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Jackye Clayton: because a lot of times people just make it up. They just make it up. I I will. You know I I was worked with Karen, our our former CEO, here at at Textio, and it was recently, and I think, one of the funniest moments that we had, and we're friends. But one of the funniest moments we had. We were in a meeting, and I was like.

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Jackye Clayton: I think, that he just called us stupid. And she was like, okay. I didn't hear the word stupid, so let's keep going. And then I was like, Well, I don't know if he likes this. She was like, well, he didn't say he didn't like us. I was like, I don't like him. And she's like, Okay, we're getting closer. It was like talking through all of the things. And it was like, okay, let's talk about the real

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Jackye Clayton: underlying issue that we're dealing with.

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Jackye Clayton: So we can be able to move forward. So it's like we can. We can talk about all of the different things and putting on the pressure even when you gave the example that was like you felt the pressure. Did anyone say, if you don't do more, you're gonna get fired, or did you think that? And so

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Jackye Clayton: I think one piece of advice that I would give that my dad

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Jackye Clayton: told me was like, you're always you're the brightest, shiniest penny. Don't ever give that away. You start at 70. Let your boss think that they help develop you that other 10%. You work your way into those things. Because if you give everything from the beginning, they're just gonna expect more, and so give what you're comfortable with and what you're willing to give, based on your conversation of what the job is.

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Jackye Clayton: tie into what the expectation is like, don't give it away for free. And so, because what happens is you set these expectations on yourself. If you're the one who always brings donuts on Friday.

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Jackye Clayton: Then you're going to lose friends. If you don't bring donuts on Friday. If you never bring donuts, then you're just the person who never brings donuts, and nobody cares right? So a lot of times you set these things up for yourself. So be realistic. Make sure once you're feeling that get very clear on the expectation.

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Jackye Clayton: Make sure that you're asking for transparency as you move along. Are we on the same page? Has anything changed since the last time I talked to you, and so I think there's a lot of managing up that you have to do to make sure that you're clear. I I, but I feel like there's generational trauma that's passed on to generations. I'm a black woman, and I'm a black woman in Texas, you know. There's different things that are happening along with that

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Jackye Clayton: versus so this is something that I I was told for a long time. I feel a lot of guilter, or you know we're standing on the shoulders of our ancestors, or I, you know I'm complaining because, you know, it's 90 degrees to go get the

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Jackye Clayton: mail, and you know we have all these people that like fought for my right to be able to own this house that lives in the same room. You know you have those things, but I have to realize, like

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Jackye Clayton: I, the the the voice of the ghosts in my head is actually my voice.

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Jackye Clayton: actually mine.

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Jackye Clayton: And so starting to know that you're doing a lot of that to yourself and give yourself Grace. If you can imagine those things, you can also imagine that you're doing just fine, and you're doing well, and that people are going to support you. So just change the narrative as best.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Self, compassion.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Eating.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): You know, I think

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): I'm gonna go kind of in the opposite direction. Cause I think this is something that we hear over and over from folks from marginalized groups is that the I have to be better? I have to prove myself. I have to continue to show up in a different way. And and so even, you know simple things. I was at a conference a few weeks ago, and we were talking about. Oh, what what pants like, you know, we had our T-shirts on, but it was like, what pants are you gonna wear? And I was like, Oh, I just gonna bring some like Capris that have like that are

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): cut offs. And and then I was like, Oh, wait! Should I do that? Is that okay? Like, do you think I'm showing up? Okay? I was on a panel with 3 absolutely phenomenal women, and and we all like had a conversation ahead of time. Hey, what are we gonna wear to make sure that we show up

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): in, you know, in the right way. And then we decided much to, you know, similar, we're gonna wear sparkles. We're gonna wear whatever we want. And we all did like we all wore like it was like no one's allowed to wear black. But that was the only requirement we all have to, you know. Dress who we are. And I think just even those types of things which it is

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): again. I know I'm in a position of privilege to say, do those things like you know, whatever that biggest fear is, just go, as you know.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): go towards it as quickly as you can. But there's also a

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): realize the other people in the room are in that same position, especially if they are from marginalized groups, and how can you help them? Because it will come back to you as well if you can realize, okay, hey, this person's getting questioned more on whatever their decision making is, or whatever they've decided to do, step in and and be that ally to them, step in and say, Hey.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): this is a great idea. Let's now move to the next person, or whatever it might be, and so I think it's a

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): recognizing your position in the room, recognizing your position in the company. And you know, if you're in a lower level position whatever that you know an individual contributor, that type of thing. You can still do those things, you know. It might be in a smaller way, or less visible way, but you can help and support the folks that are in in that

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): same situation. But I I also think it's the

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): being able to sit with someone and just say, What do you need help? What are the things that would be helpful for you in these moments? So you know I I try my best to act as an ally as often as I can, and not that I'm naming myself and ally. But that is really my thought is always. How is this being perceived and received by everyone in the room. How does this sound? What are the you know? Are they? Are these the right words?

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): And I work with a very global company. So it's also, you know, not just the gender piece, not just the Lgbtq piece, not just, you know, whatever you might want to bring up. It's also regional differences, just the differences in language. The

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): tons of you know.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): expressions that we have in the Us. That you say them other places. And they're like, what does that mean? What are those words? So I think it's a lot of things just recognizing that

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): everyone else is feeling that same way. And how can you bring them along? But also recognizing that folks from marginalized groups

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): do, in fact, have. And we know this from the research, do, in fact, have to prove themselves over and over and over again in every room and every situation. And how can you help eliminate that.

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Jackye Clayton: I will say, prove yourself, and do more work or 2 separate things.

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Jackye Clayton: Those are like like. So it's like.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yes.

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Jackye Clayton: Right? So it's like.

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Jackye Clayton: there's another way of advocating when you're advocating for yourself, learning how to do that. And also

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Jackye Clayton: you can ask people what they need, but also share what you have. I don't know what you have, so I don't know that this is unfair, like. When I said, when I got all those jobs I didn't know that that was not a realistic expectation. I just did those things. And so it's like, Oh, telling somebody when you have the title and the power of saying, in order for me to do this job, I would need these things. Do you have those things?

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Jackye Clayton: Who is doing this for you, you know, like, do you think you have everything you need to be successful? This is what I would need to give people an example. I think, like, like, when you're dealing with finance and budget, this happens a lot where it's like, okay, we're gonna give you $5,000 for your budget.

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Jackye Clayton: And then the person's going

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Jackye Clayton: absolutely bananas, trying to figure out how to go into that budget. And someone will say.

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Jackye Clayton: Oh, just put the rest on the credit card, and you're like, what credit card?

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Jackye Clayton: I didn't know there was a credit card. Oh, yeah, it's only another $1,000, and and you had no idea that existed. So make sure that when you're having conversations and you are doing that allyship, you let them know what it looks like what good looks like, because I don't know what I don't know to make it easier for someone to say, let them know

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Jackye Clayton: you don't have everything that you need, because I I most people just feel like I have everything that I need. I can handle it on my own. It's because they didn't know that these things were even available to them.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Jackie, you are sharing a story that like literally just happened to me about 3 weeks ago, where I was like, how am I gonna get all of these projects done. Get all this work done. My team is so small. What am I gonna do?

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): And the Cfo was like.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): just get more headcount like. And I was like, Oh.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): oh, I I can decide that. I oh, I yeah, I have a budget. I can decide how I spend that budget. This is what I'm gonna do. And it was like, but it literally did not even occur to me that

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): yeah, I don't have to work 14,000 HA day.

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Jackye Clayton: Right.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): I can bring in other folks and get other other people that are better than you know, whatever it is, better than I am at it.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): So it's also to your point, like being that person that says, Have you thought about it this way, or here's what you could do instead, and giving like some

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): just help up of you know. How else can we do this?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I think it's interesting. I really I like that. You have the 2 voices in the room on this, and they're not totally disagreeing. But I so I want to. So

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: so, Jackie, someone did sit me down and tell me when I was at Microsoft and I was a network engineer. You need to prove yourself more literally. Those were his words to me, and maybe I was too cocky. But I'm also just like, would he have sat a guy down in the same position who was just like showing up at the table and offering their opinion, I'm not sure. And so fast forward years later, and this was right around the time that lean in, and I was in the boardroom at Oracle, and I chose a seat, not at the table.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: like literally the metaphor for the whole thing. And you're like, did I do that to myself, or were there signals? And it's both right, like signals were given to me, but I could have chosen at any moment. But I need allies and people who are pointing out what those

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: places are where I'm holding myself back. And that's why I think this allyship conversation is so important, because it's also just having a great mentor or having the people that you were talking about Katie, who are going to speak truth, to help to support you on your journey. I want to pivot, though, because there's this. So we have an executive mastermind for catalyst execs called the Catalyst Leadership Trust. And we just yesterday had this conversation. We had the chief diversity officer from Bitly come in to start the conversation

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: out of the report that we did about supercharging the workforce this year. One of the key themes in terms of creating inclusive and trusting environments is this backlash against DEI?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And they put up this map of all of the places where bills had been put forward and laws had been put forward, and it was a gut punch going back to that word the 1st time I saw it. I was like, it's the intentionality about it

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: is insane. And so I'm just wondering, like, you know, how do you help organizations not get stuck in the status quo when this is the amount of resistance that they're coming and still continue to make progress, especially when we have the data that more diverse, inclusive environments create better financial outcomes like, why do we still have to have that conversation.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Okay. So it, I think the

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): the place that I would start is yeah around the data. But I I think there's

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): another piece to this, which is also

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): this business case that we have all talked about for years and years. It's also just

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): be a good human.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Right? Totally, we do have to justify it with numbers. Seriously.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Like, we're, we're seeing so many examples of the opposite of that around the country and throughout the world. So it's also that, like, just be a good human. But I think.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): as we talk about diversity as we talk about the backlash against diversity, we're Jack and I are living it every day in our workplaces where we have folks that are like. But why are we doing this? But why does it matter? But you know all of the questions. And and I think it's and I think not just Jack and I I think all of us are it is trying to just

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): meet people where they are and bring them along on the journey. I I am very much a

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): you get more bees with honey type person. I am not going to try to defend to someone that is

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): a racist, a homophobe. Whatever you know, whatever they might be. I'm not gonna say. Here's why you shouldn't be that cause. Guess what? You're not gonna win an argument on Facebook. You're not gonna win an argument, you know, even in person, a lot of times. So it is

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): okay. How can you actually meet them where they are and bring them along on the journey? And I can't tell you how many times I've had a classroom full of older white men not to pick on older white men. But I'll start talking about some of the diversity pieces, and you know, at 1st it's like, Okay, yeah. Hr is making us do this great. But then when you start kind of having okay, this is where you are. This is why it matters to you, to your children, to your grandchildren, to the

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): community at large.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Those are some of the things. And you know we saw this in, you know the last couple of of elections, and I forget who the Speaker was that I heard, but it was like from a Republican standpoint. You don't talk about

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): climate change. You talk about how do we preserve?

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): You know our forest? How do you and and you have to go at it with different language and different ways. And so that kind of has always resonated with me of like, how can we meet people where they are and bring them along. But it's also acknowledging that not everyone's going to come with you. Not everyone wants to be on the journey, and that is okay. And I think you know, we are in this space right now that

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): we are.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): there's a lot going on. And you know, I think we could have a a very dark period coming. I think we're actually in that dark period in a lot of ways. But I also think it's because these

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): holdouts of power are still in place.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): and they have to die at some point. They're very old, so they have to die soon, hopefully, you know, and then we'll be, and then everything will be fine.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): That's fine. Everything's fine.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: There's Katie's magic wand wishing death on everybody. Yes.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Sniper rifle works every time. No, I'm just kidding. You know. I I truly, though like it is one of those things that I think

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): even the folks that have been very re resistant to some of this are starting to go. I need to actually make a change, or I need to do something differently, and

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): finding whatever that pieces that will resonate with them to bring them along, I think, is really important.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): so yeah, that that would. Yeah.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): I'll stop there. And I'm not really going to like kill anyone off to be very.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Secret service. It's okay. It's okay.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yeah, it's everything's fine. Everything's totally fine. Love everyone.

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Jackye Clayton: When I think about it like, I don't think people really are against diversity, I think what they're against is people getting some unfair advantage, even though white men and I do mean all white men have gotten an unfair advantage since the beginning of time within this country, like the the battle. It's a cross between somebody getting something that's not fair, and also against

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Jackye Clayton: black and brown people, gay people, people that don't fall within the norm. It is very strategic and on purpose. It's been like, this is the beginning of time. This push back is this is not the 1st time that it's pushed back. And just because we have a name for it right now, it's always been again

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Jackye Clayton: letting people from marginalized group like giving people those opportunities like equity just is as I have a place, because it seems unfair, like being fair. Seems like oppression to people who've gotten things in an unequitable fashion.

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Jackye Clayton: So so when I look at it. It's not, I think, one of the things that were funny for me at Textio, another example of our current, CEO. We were lapping our our product helps you be more fair and equitable. And someone did ask about us talking about.

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Jackye Clayton: You know, it's something being steeped in white supremacy, and he goes well, it's fair and equitable for everyone. Maybe we should change the name or change our tagline. It's like textio, the product for white people. And it was like, because it's still fair and equitable to everyone, regardless of what your background is. So if it would make you feel better to utilize the product right?

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Jackye Clayton: So the the the truth of the matter is, while this is happening, it's really just a distraction for what's really going on within the organization and giving the people of power another reason to suppress black people. Brown people, gay people drag. People don't think that this is something that has to do with actual Dei.

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Jackye Clayton: It doesn't have to do with Dei, because everybody will say they want a fair and inclusive workplace. They wanna have the best talent for the job. They want everybody to feel like they can be themselves at work as long as they're not gay. Muslim.

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Jackye Clayton: you know a migrant like all of those things. That's how it is. And it has been like that from the beginning of time. And so the way that you you're not going to be able to get around that. If if we're talking about semantics, I think it is important to break it down of what you're actually trying to do and focus more on how are we making everybody feel like they belong? And how are we, including everyone, to make sure that everybody is getting those fair shots and opportunity.

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Jackye Clayton: I don't. I think that it's helpful to try to get towards fairness and trying to make sure that we're being fair and equitable to to

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Jackye Clayton: to everyone because they need, and being transparent with what's actually going on. I mean, part of the reason that we're in the situation.

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Jackye Clayton: you know that we're in now is because of full perception. I mean, we've had a past president

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Jackye Clayton: who've actually suppressed like poor white people, and has done like the worst damage to white people in this country being voted for, even though they're like an actual felon, because they gave the perception that I'm on your side, and we can say that it's against black people. But really, what we have to do is dismantle, dismantle this unfair power and getting it back to what we need to do. And so we are not gonna do that

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Jackye Clayton: in unconscious bias training.

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Jackye Clayton: But so it's bigger than that. But if we can that make sure that we have the right language.

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Jackye Clayton: that we're talking about, the right things that we can implement, that everyone can like the I would say, air quote common sense types of things

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Jackye Clayton: and giving people the language so that they can recognize

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Jackye Clayton: what fairness looks like.

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Jackye Clayton: Then you will have more people on on your side.

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Jackye Clayton: I think it's important, you know, like.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yeah, can I just reiterate like, it's about power.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): So exactly that that is really what it's about is, you know, keeping power, keeping power away from others, so that I can be in power. But it's also about

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): again. You know the the story lines of I'm on your side, othering people. All of these things is about power. But it's also.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): if our past president was anything, he's a professional gaslighter and does an extremely good job at telling a story that

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): for whatever reason people believe, and it's like, No, but here's the data to say that that's not true.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): No, no, what he said is right. What he said is accurate, and I think that's also part of it is, we have been as women, you know, black and brown people all, all of the the different groups that have been marginalized and continue to be marginalized.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): There is such a gaslighting of what is happening, what's going on? And it's oh, but I'm doing this in your best interest. Oh, I'm doing this for you, and

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): no.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): no, you're not.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: One theme I hear. So connecting sort of the 2 themes is, you know, from Katie. It's like meeting people where they are and from Jackie you're like, and combining that with a level of transparency which is sort of where where you just ended, Katie and I I mean, we don't have a lot of time, but like the the equity versus equality, conversation. And it's like. And and this is the emotional labor that I really struck

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: with on some of these. Whatever the change is like, if you're the one who wants the change, you have to meet them where they are, but also like the recognition of their perception of losing something right. If you look at the equality versus equity, it does change a little bit. But like that's not wrong. That's actually fair. But how do you meet people where they are with that sense of loss and then fear? Potentially.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: we can judge that if we want. But that's just true. And I think you know, this is the hard conversations around change in general, but particularly, this kind is like we should have seen some of those outcomes coming, and we weren't listening, you know.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So I want to thank you ladies, for getting real in the shit with us, because that felt a little cathartic for me honestly, and I would love to continue the conversation with you.

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Jackye Clayton: Yeah, anytime.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Yes.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Well, as we wrap up, we'll go lighter weight

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): to hear from both of you about your favorite catalyst, a live or dead past present.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): how they inspire you, why, they stand out.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Okay

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): off the top. My head just I,

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): someone that stands out for me pretty much every single day is a very dear friend of mine, Angela Huey.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): She's the leader of a group called One Community Az, and they're a Lgbtq group, and she started what's called the equality pledge. And it was working with businesses in Arizona to have them. Basically say, you know, we know that in a lot of states in the Us.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Housing employment can still be a hard thing for folks in the LGBT. Community, and and people can be discriminated against unless there is an ordinance in place that type of thing. And so she decided to work with the businesses to say, can you say that you will not make hiring decisions discriminate against folks in your hiring practices, but also, and you know, for

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): housing, for all of these different things. And she's built this coalition. That is absolutely amazing. And she's also one of those people that

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): it can be the hardest news day. And you know, as you said in Arizona, we have had

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): very hard news over the years on, you know, a lot of different things, and

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): she is always positive and always wanting. Hey, let's just go have a cup of coffee. And again meeting people where they are.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): but so dynamic and so able to bring change and think of different ways to bring change. It's not just the hey, this is what this other group is doing. So we're going to do it, too. It's coming up with new ideas coming up with.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): how can we do this better. How can we bring groups that maybe haven't been a part of the conversation along? And then also, you know, she's done a phenomenal job of creating a coalition within different Lgbtq groups Lgbtq groups in Arizona, so that they're all working together now, not against each other. And so it I think like people like that are.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): That's who I want to be around. That's who I want to talk to. And then I think the other person is a former boss of mine, Kay Wood, who she was, that person that said to me like.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): I'm not going to tell you how to do the thing.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Go figure it out, and and it's A, you know, your path to get to Point B might be different than mine. And that is okay.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): As long as you get to Point B, and so, you know, obviously, of course, correction and things like that. But she always was really good about pushing me and telling me to try new things, but also

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): letting me do it my own way, and you know, letting me stumble sometimes, letting me fall sometimes, but being there to pick me up and go. What did you learn from that? How did you grow from that? And so really, I think she helped kind of open up that catalyst mindset for me, as well.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Amazing Jackie!

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Jackye Clayton: I would say I have 2 as well. One, it would be a Bellvery. Ross is a former boss. That I work to that gave me all the opportunities in the world, and started with that like, I'm still friends with her, I mean, she's also the person like he went to Bank of America and put a thousand dollars in the bank when I got my 1st house, like, you know, all of those types of things. And I'm still kind of

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Jackye Clayton: low key, scared of her because I'm like, oh, she always always pushed me to be better. And it was always what I needed when I needed it, even though maybe I didn't feel like it. And it and it it changed my life. And another one would be Christine Comaford. Was a huge catalyst for me. She wrote a book called Rules for Renegades.

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Jackye Clayton: Some people love it. Some people hated it for me. I appreciate it because it just kind of went. She has a very interesting path similar to mine, where where it was a little bit all over the place, and how she was able to be successful. And after I read

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Jackye Clayton: that book, years and years and years ago, I knew that there was a chance that I could actually do this and be successful with what I had. And it taught me about how to network and do all of those things. And I will tell you. It was a funny story. I was at a conference, and Katie might remember this.

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Jackye Clayton: could not go into the room. She was speaking at a conference, and it

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Jackye Clayton: so they didn't have any people. They didn't have any more room for any people to go into the room, but I knew she was having a book signing, and so I waited outside. So I was 1st in line for the book signing, and when I went up to her, and I told her that.

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Jackye Clayton: like the impact that it had in my life and impact I had in my career, and she did something that I that stays with me.

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Jackye Clayton: and she said.

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Jackye Clayton: You know, I was wondering who I was writing this book, for it was for you it was for you, and I just lost it because

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Jackye Clayton: I really really felt that. And let's take Katie wants some kleenex.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Every time. Sick guys every time. Yeah, I do. I'm good.

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Jackye Clayton: Both of my co-hosts. I get them crying. Nobody gets them crying like I.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Oh, good job, good job.

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Jackye Clayton: That's so much to me. And I realize now, and I've used that with other people that were like, you know, when people have come up and they are. They've said to me, Oh, I've been so excited to see you, or whatever this, and I was like. I was wondering who's going to be in the room. I did this for you, and and just remember that as you're doing this work, especially you 2, when you're going and doing this catalyst work. There is somebody who really needs you. So just keep doing what you're doing. And I appreciate

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Jackye Clayton: both of you and you too, Katie, do you, Robert?

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): I'm I'm a little surprised that I wasn't your catalyst, your, the person.

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Jackye Clayton: Bitch. Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I just.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Discuss this later, my friend. He's talking about it later. Yes.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Bring the mood back up, Katie.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): She makes him cry. I give you guys more laughter.

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Jackye Clayton: The tears just sucked back into the aisle.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I think I needed that. Yup.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Katie, Jackie, this has been so much fun, both an honor and incredibly fun, and I love that each time you share an answer. What sounds like. It's it's going to be light and simple. The the gems of wisdom that I've been not jotting down that are really formulas for all of us in the world have been incredible. So thank you. Thank you for sharing with us today.

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Katee Van Horn (she/her): Of course. Thank you for having us.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world, be sure to check out our book, move fast, break ship, burn out, or go to our website at catalyst constellations.com dot.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And if you enjoyed this episode even a quarter as much as Tracy and I just did, please take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and of course.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: as we were just talking about. If you have other catalysts in your life, send this their way so that they can benefit as well. Thanks again.