Heather Jerrehian, VP of Product Management at ServiceNow: The Multidimensional Catalyst

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon, Lucas.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm and I'm Tracy Lovejoy. We're the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break, shirt burnout, where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today we are super excited to have time with heather Durahian welcome heather.

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Heather Jerrehian: Thank you so much for having me.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: We are excited. Okay for our listeners. Heather is an entrepreneurial futurist and investor who's driven innovation and go to market strategies for startups and fortune, 500 companies over 2 decades.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: She is the co-author of sale to scale. Steer your startup clear of mistakes from launch to exit, which I already got some good pearls of wisdom for me to reconnect with guiding entrepreneurs and navigating the complexities of business, scaling as a serial founder and tech. Exec she's led turnarounds at unprecedented speed.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: scaled 10 x growth and engineered profitable exits, including the recent acquisition of Hitch by Servicenow under her leadership as CEO Heather is a founding, limited partner of the venture. Capital firm! How women invest and has been recognized as a woman of influence by Silicon Valley Business Journal. We're thrilled to have you here today. All right. So let's jump right in. We'd love to understand. That's your like, quick, Bio. But we'd love

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: or catalytic journey through the lens of your catalytic nature, and maybe sharing a few career highlights that you're proud of to help us see it.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah. So I thank you. And I again, I am so excited to be here and and to meet both of you. This is just such a cool topic. And so, you know, when I think about myself, I actually like to describe myself as a hexagon.

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Heather Jerrehian: So I'm not someone who is the peg that fits in the round hole, but rather a hexagon that is multifaceted, you know, always connecting dots in unexpected ways. So you know my career has been shaped by a catalytic mindset of synthesizing lots of data, you know, to rapidly find the next opportunity to build scale and grow businesses.

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Heather Jerrehian: So thinking about like my career. One early example, at the beginning of my career I worked at guest watches as an account executive, so leading sales for our major department stores account, and as I often did, I'd visit stores to see how the business was doing. And, you know, interesting. I started noticing the inefficiencies of having multiple

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Heather Jerrehian: branded replacement strap displays on the countertops, because in a department store everything is all about sales by square foot. So you have to earn your space.

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Heather Jerrehian: So it sparked a thought, and I actually pitched the idea to our CEO of creating this single universal strap display, so not branded so that stores could have one, not many to basically open up, that you know valuable retail real estate. And so the CEO gave me the green light. And what started just as an idea like, literally turned into a 5 million dollars business overnight. And so this was like, really early in my career.

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Heather Jerrehian: And then, gosh! I've got, you know. Let me think. I've got a couple other examples. One, you know later, as an entrepreneur, I co-founded a premium Denim Jean Brand and this is at the height of the denim craze so earlier, 2 thousands. So it was an incredibly crowded market. So again, totally crazy for trying to even enter this market, but by leveraging the golden ratio, which is the ratio of one to 1.6 1 8, which is all about proportions.

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Heather Jerrehian: And using that in our design. So our pattern making pocket placements and all the details, we were actually able to create the perfect fit for men and women.

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Heather Jerrehian: and rather than starting in the Us. To sell, we actually had the foresight to take our collection straight to the denim taste makers, as we like to call them in Japan.

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Heather Jerrehian: and we were able to secure one of the best distributors, and so, before we knew it, we had busted our way into this market, and, you know, within a year we were selling in top retailers like Barneys, New York, and Harvey Nichols across the globe, and we even had generated over a million in sales in our 1st year, which you know as a startup, seems pretty

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Heather Jerrehian: pretty amazing.

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Heather Jerrehian: And then one last example I'll give is, I would say, another like defining moment was my time as the CEO of Hitch where I parachuted in to do a pivot and hitch, had this amazing product focused on talent, mobility, which is really all about technology that helps fill roles and staff projects internally rather than having to go to the external market.

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Heather Jerrehian: So, however, the company was struggling to compete with larger players because their offerings were sort of good enough and typically bundled that technology into their existing systems.

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Heather Jerrehian: So you know, as part of my evaluation to understand the business, I went on the typical listening tour with our customers and prospects, and quickly realized that their biggest pain point wasn't talent mobility.

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Heather Jerrehian: but it was actually managing disparate skills, data across multiple systems which we actually had the underlying intelligence to solve.

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Heather Jerrehian: So that insight led us to reposition hitch as a dynamic skills, intelligence platform.

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Heather Jerrehian: and in less than a year the pivot ultimately led to our acquisition by Servicenow, where I'm currently working.

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Heather Jerrehian: So you know, these experiences, along with many others like, have been the foundation of the book which you had mentioned in the beginning, that I co-authored sail to scale. We really dive into, like the 18 most common mistakes business leaders make across the 4 waves of what we call a startup journey, which is launch, pivot, scale and exit.

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Heather Jerrehian: So, for example, in the pivot wave, we explore how to identify the crack in the market, which is a framework that I've developed to help leaders, you know, pinpoint new directions or business opportunities when it feels like you just can't get the traction you need in the market.

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Heather Jerrehian: So the book combines our personal stories like interviews from other founders, practical tools to help leaders avoid. You know that common boom bust cycles that, you know, keep startups from succeeding. So

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Heather Jerrehian: lots lots of catalyst moments in my career.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing examples, great storytelling, which doesn't surprise me. Okay. But I do have to say, as an art history, nerd, I have to. I have to ask you like, how did you bring the golden ratio into denim like? Whose idea was that? And how did you execute on that.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah. So I had 2 partners that were just brilliant designers. And so they they had actually, one of them had actually worked for Vivian Westwood and Vivian Westwood, you know this is, goes back way back when was really like fanatical about pattern making. And so it was Richard Atkins who really are my partner that came up with it, and myself and Terrell and Richard

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Heather Jerrehian: took this idea and brought it to market. So it was. Yeah, it was it? Was, it made it an intelligent brand, which, like, I said, to break into that market. We really needed

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Heather Jerrehian: to come with something different. We had, like all the best materials, but having that sort of intelligent story that was different was really what kind of gave us that

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Heather Jerrehian: that edge.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, super cool. I know our audience can hear how you've shown up as a catalyst throughout your career, but we'd love to hear from you like, how do you relate to the concept of catalyst? And maybe how has, being a catalyst helped you get to these executive roles?

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah, so yeah, I would say that being a catalyst resonates deeply. You know with how I approach leadership and inspiring change. It really captures my belief that anything is possible that's like one of my favorite things to say and believe, and you know, in connecting dots that others may not, even when the path isn't fully, you know. Clear

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Heather Jerrehian: you know, I find energy in identifying those untapped opportunities like to me. That is super exciting, because I would rather pave the road than follow the path.

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Heather Jerrehian: So as an executive, you know, being a catalyst, allows me to envision futures that aren't yet visible to others. And it's really by synthesizing lots of information rapidly and really using my enthusiasm to motivate and inspire people to take action.

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Heather Jerrehian: So it's you know, it's a mindset that really thrives on agility and iteration which have been essential, and particularly with our pace of change. And you know, when we think about the pace of change

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Heather Jerrehian: in the world we're in now. It just

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Heather Jerrehian: strikes me that catalysts are going to have to be like they're going to be in more demand, because the where we are in this world is going to demand this type of thinking, this type of foresight to help organizations

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Heather Jerrehian: compete in what is like a once in a generation experience that we're all going through.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: As someone who has led multiple businesses. I'd love to deep dive there. Of what? How would you suggest? Other fellow executives take that wisdom. What does it mean for them to, you know, know that catalysts are going to be helping them here.

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Heather Jerrehian: You know, one of the things I think is really smart as an executive is to hire people with a different point of view and perspective. You know, we often, you know, we like to pattern match as people we like people who are just like us.

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Heather Jerrehian: And I can just use an example like we just hired someone new in our product marketing team. And he came from a very large, another very large, successful enterprise, and even our new President. He just came from Google Cloud. And when I think about this new

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Heather Jerrehian: point of view and perspective coming into service now, like, I love talking with them because they are seeing things that my colleagues aren't seeing right. There are things that maybe I'm seeing, but I need more of me's to connect with more. Me's to be able to help bring my colleagues along on the journey of some of the things that we're going to need to do. And so you know, I think it's really about being open minded and

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Heather Jerrehian: thinking. Don't look for someone that is has the same skills and

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Heather Jerrehian: perspective of you actually, specifically look for people that have very different skills, a very different life experience. Because those are the people that are going to help come up with those creative ideas that are actually going to give you that competitive edge, that you need.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You did such a great job of defining, like all of the traits that have made you successful as a catalyst. Maybe not all. But it was a good list, right? The dot connecting the energy, the bringing people along, the identifying the new opportunities. You'd rather pave it or pave the road than follow the path.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah.

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Heather Jerrehian: And we often, I just gave a talk this week, actually about articulating your value as a catalyst.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Because all of the words that you're talking about like we believe, like Tracy. And I know that those are important. But organizations are like. But where's your advanced degree? And being a catalyst, or whatever, what's your advice for catalysts, for how to articulate their value into organizations?

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Heather Jerrehian: You know, I think it's about finding opportunities where you can demonstrate it right? Because,

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Heather Jerrehian: you know an example I'll give, and I think it's sort of funny like I. You know, I'm I've been classified now as a Futurist now, was IA Futurist 10 years ago?

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Heather Jerrehian: I don't know like, maybe.

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Heather Jerrehian: but it's because I've repeatedly demonstrated and had a point of view and a perspective. I've created a platform and thought leadership. And so I think that people really have to think about ways that they can share what they're thinking with others, and also

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Heather Jerrehian: have thought partners right? So people really get to know you. They get to know how you're thinking. And it's again, it's really the way to demonstrate who you are.

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Heather Jerrehian: how you see the world, but also to get that people to to buy in and start to trust you right, because influence is all about trust and getting people to follow you. And so I think that's you know, it's actually really one of the scarier things when I think about like the people are afraid of where AI is. And you know, AI is coming to take my job. And I actually have this perspective that it actually makes work more human.

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Heather Jerrehian: but it also has made me empathize with like, okay, when is a time in the past when I have felt sort of

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Heather Jerrehian: vulnerable, and you know, and going to kind of sharing your thought leadership was like when I 1st started posting on social media right? Like I didn't grow up with it. I'm not part of that era, but I remember how vulnerable I felt the 1st time I did it. And now it's second nature. So again, it's just that muscle of

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Heather Jerrehian: being able to share who you are how you think, and then, being able to demonstrate it.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I love that reminder. So you know, as catalyst, we can be so focused on the transformation that we're often not thinking about, how am I really showing the value in the near term? And who who is really ready to catch this? As opposed to kind of that like? But this has to happen. There's such a tactical reality that's helpful for us of paying attention to

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: show the value. Bring people along. So thank you. I love that.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: You're pointing to some of the challenges that you've experienced, and so I'd love to broaden it and just ask what are one or 2 of the biggest challenges that you faced as a catalyst executive.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah. So I think you know, one of the biggest challenges as I've mentioned is really that tension between moving fast and bringing others along. And so.

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Heather Jerrehian: you know, as catalysts, we see opportunities and solutions so clearly and with such urgency that it can really feel frustrating when others don't immediately grasp our big ideas or align with the vision?

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Heather Jerrehian: So I found that this disconnect can actually lead to misunderstandings or resistance among the team, or even, you know, a sense of isolation as we push for transformative change.

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Heather Jerrehian: So I've had to incorporate the discipline of making sure. I pause

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Heather Jerrehian: and check to see where the team is on the journey. Sometimes I'll find out I've actually lost them a mile back, and then I have to recruit them to get back on board. And so that's a challenge. Another one is.

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Heather Jerrehian: you know, balancing that innate drive for action with the need for downtime. And and particularly as I've gotten older. I have to say

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Heather Jerrehian: a recent example. When I experienced some extreme burnout, was after actually the hitch acquisition to Servicenow.

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Heather Jerrehian: It was interesting because I was in the process of wrapping up a large funding round when Servicenow approached us.

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Heather Jerrehian: and when I invited them to join, they indicated they wanted to acquire us not invest.

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Heather Jerrehian: which totally caught me off guard, so I told them if they could move quickly

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Heather Jerrehian: I'd explore this path with them, but I couldn't let go of the money that I was ready to close on. So I finished due diligence for the fundraise on a Friday, and literally started deep due diligence with Servicenow on a Saturday, and when you're in a potential acquisition, you know you have no guarantee, it will close until you close.

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Heather Jerrehian: So I had to keep the investors warm without them. Realizing that I was stalling and also had to put our sales on hold. As Servicenow was not interested in our customers. They wanted our technology and team.

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Heather Jerrehian: So I had to delay deals that were ready to close without our internal sales team knowing what was happening. So it like it felt like I had all of these plates spinning, and only a very small group of our internal team members who actually knew what was going on, and you know. And to make the story even more thrilling

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Heather Jerrehian: after I negotiated the deal and signed the letter of intent with Servicenow.

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Heather Jerrehian: war broke out in Ukraine, and financial markets collapsed literally overnight. Servicenow lost 30 billion in market cap, just the same as all companies.

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Heather Jerrehian: And so I thought, for sure. Oh, my God, this deal is not going to go through. But ultimately our technology was so strategic to the business that we closed on June 15th and started at Servicenow on June 16th

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Heather Jerrehian: but, as you can imagine, there was still a whole company to wrap up, and a major transition to adjust to, while we also rebuilt our technology into the service now platform. So as if that was not exciting enough

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Heather Jerrehian: on a personal front, so am I, sounding like a catalyst. So on the personal front.

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Heather Jerrehian: I had also purchased a new home and started some construction.

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Heather Jerrehian: So needless to say, doing all these things at once is definitely not something I would recommend.

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Heather Jerrehian: But you know the good news is that I eventually, you know, settled, and I was able to carve out some downtime and got my head back above water. But you know it definitely felt like Mr. Toad's wild ride. If any of you are familiar of that from Disneyland, but it was that was just like an experience that was unlike any other.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Hope these are so fun like painful for your life, but so fun to have in technicolor. So thank you for sharing, and I.

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Heather Jerrehian: Well, type of color, because it's the past, right? Like I.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Right now, but them.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah, yeah, I'm able to share it now. But there was a there was a place in time where it was a little bit harder. It was still a little too.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Of course, but that the fact that you're willing to share it is my point that like, Thank you. And so I want to go backwards, and a question you'll tell me if if the question is relevant. So you know you, said the second one, the innate drive for action balanced with the need for downtime, obviously compounded by the fact that you had construction going on in your place of downtime.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: You also mentioned, as you told that story all the people that didn't know.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: and I wondered if that was compounding any of the exhaustion.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah.

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Heather Jerrehian: Oh, for sure. I mean, I think as catalysts like, you know, I've always said, like, early in my career, I was always like

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Heather Jerrehian: I always felt like I couldn't say I didn't know it was like, No, I've got this like, and then I would just go and figure it out. So something about that that's, I guess, kind of ingrained in me. But it is exhausting. Yeah, it's exhausting to know it all. When the truth is, we don't know what we don't know, but we don't know that we don't know it right?

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Heather Jerrehian: Totally.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And so I'm curious, like as an executive. In this moment you actually did know a lot.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And you're holding back, which is, which is true for ex executives and large organizations all the time. Right? They're aware of the reorgs coming. They know the.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Changes that are ahead that are going to impact tens, hundreds, thousands of people.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: What did you learn about

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: withholding is my word. So I don't I? I you know. What did you learn about that reality and how to manage through it?

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Heather Jerrehian: Oh, my goodness, that 1st of all excellent question, you know. When did I learn about that?

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Heather Jerrehian: you know I think it was really through going through some personal things when I started becoming more self-aware and sort of developing, you know, empathy to understand sort of the human dynamic and what motivates and inspires people, including myself.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: No.

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Heather Jerrehian: So I think it was really through that process. That

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Heather Jerrehian: sort of helped me to understand.

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Heather Jerrehian: you know. But I you know I don't know. It's such a good question. It's like, I don't know if I can pinpoint exactly other than I distinctly remember my brother-in-law, who I really admire and have always looked up to.

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Heather Jerrehian: I remember he asked me. I asked him a question once, and

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Heather Jerrehian: he said to me, Oh, I don't know.

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Heather Jerrehian: and I was like, well, wait a minute.

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Heather Jerrehian: You're a super smart businessman. You're not. Is it really okay to say you don't know like, and I think maybe that may have been one of those moments when

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Heather Jerrehian: I was like, Oh, wow, okay, I don't need to know everything. So yeah, so I think maybe that was one of those like

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Heather Jerrehian: moments of clarity around may have happened.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I love the the picture you're painting of. It's like the awareness you're growing in yourself.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And then considering like, what's the impact of the people around me in what I choose to share, what I choose to acknowledge. I don't know.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That's it's a it's a beautiful dance. I'm hearing you do.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah, yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I think the need for transparency has become kind of the default talk line.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And yet it's not always really possible.

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Heather Jerrehian: Right.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So I love that thought of, you know, like

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: what's happening for me, what's the impact on them of what I might say?

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And the positive impact of acknowledging.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I don't know.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah, yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Cool. Thank you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: There's something interesting that you alluded to earlier, too, which is like having the people who are the dot connectors are like finding some of the co-conspirators. I know not. Everyone's an extrovert and needs to process everything out loud. But I do think the catalyst community in general really does like having those safe places to to do the troubleshooting with other people. And I'm just wondering you talked about that with intentionality. But like, how do? How do catalyst leaders find

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: their catalyst leaders to support them, especially through those really difficult transitions.

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Heather Jerrehian: Well, it's interesting.

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Heather Jerrehian: you know. So 1st of all, Julia Martinson, who introduced us, who I just adore. She's a colleague, and she's in our innovation office.

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Heather Jerrehian: She is someone that from the 1st moment I met her we just clicked kind of like the 2 of you. So I think the as I've gotten to know myself more and the more that I've opened up. And I talk with people there are just these people where it's like a

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Heather Jerrehian: I don't know. It's like we're on. We don't even need to say things, and we kind of can read each other's minds. So I think it's since I've I'm older, right? I'm more mature. I have more life experience.

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Heather Jerrehian: And because again, I have more self-awareness. And like again that life experience that when I see.

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Heather Jerrehian: I just know the feeling when I connect with someone, and I'm connecting in a way that's almost cellular, like it's it's.

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Heather Jerrehian: And and so these people. These meaning I've actually got some like, as I've been actually working on some predictions for next year in the future. There's a few people I go to who are sort of these thought partners, and they're all different ages. They come from different corners of the world. And

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Heather Jerrehian: but there are people that like

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Heather Jerrehian: I can have an idea, and then we can take the idea here, and then we can expand it there, and kind of like shapeshift and look at it. And it's like that's like, honestly, that's where I like. That's like air to me like that gets me so excited and so I think I've just kind of like like I'm like, Hey, you're one of me, right like I know you. You're one of me, too, and so I think it's just like I don't know. It's kind of funny. I feel like we almost need like a like a secret pass code to be like.

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Heather Jerrehian: are you a catalyst? I'm a catalyst.

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Heather Jerrehian: She knew.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Totally, but I think 300.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: There is that cellular thing, and even as you said it, I got goosebumps in my body, and and Tracy and I have this belief. You asked a great question in our in our, you know, Kickoff, before we

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: about like, you know, the neuroscience behind it. And I think, like, when science catches up with whatever this is, there will be something on like some kind of cellular, something energy wave level that that describes us. Yeah.

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Heather Jerrehian: There's like something in the DNA that they haven't discovered yet, but which is like some chromosome that's like, Oh, you all have this matched with this one, and you know, and this one's broken. But this one works. And because of that like, because of that, you have this weird, tangential way that you look at the world that others don't like. I don't know something crazy like that.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And that takes me back to the 1st challenge you shared of that tension between moving fast and bringing others along. And you've learned to pause.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: bring it into like tactical. What is it that you do? What is the what does the pause look like? Like? That's just amazing. A gift for the audience. Right.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah. So you know, I think because I understand, or I've learned that not everyone like processes

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Heather Jerrehian: change or new ideas at the same speed or with the same level of enthusiasm, like, I know, that's okay. Right? Like, I think, before I used to take it more personally. So again, this goes to the self awareness, and, as a matter of fact, like, I don't know if you all are familiar with the 4 agreements. Are you familiar, Don Miguel Ruiz.

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Heather Jerrehian: and I just like live by this. For some reason they really resonate with me. Be impeccable with your word. Don't take things personally. Always do your best

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Heather Jerrehian: and don't.

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Heather Jerrehian: Don't

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Heather Jerrehian: let's see. Sorry. Don't make assumptions. Okay, that's like that's like, this is the card I actually pulled today. So I always pull a card, and this one says, Assume nothing, don't make assumptions. So

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Heather Jerrehian: I have reminders like this, and I think it's that I've just learned, and I can tell when I get to that place where I'm I'm moving really quickly, and I can kind of see it in people's faces. Or again, it's sort of that resistance you start to get. I'm like, Okay, Heather. You need to slow down a little bit. You need to bring the group

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Heather Jerrehian: back. And so I think it's again, it's more to a self awareness of really understanding different people, different personality types. And that's just come honestly

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Heather Jerrehian: with age and having worked with a lot of different people and making a lot of mistakes and those mistakes learning from them. Like, I really have that lifelong learning like, I'm always trying to understand. How can I do things better? Not just for myself, but for the people you know, that are on my team or my colleagues. So I think it's really kind of just that exploration of

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Heather Jerrehian: my love of people and really wanting to bring the best out of everyone, and knowing that sometimes the things I do don't bring the best out in people.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: No.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Really quickly. How do you know if they are actually along with you or not? How do you know when you've lost them?

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Heather Jerrehian: You know you've lost them. I can't. So it's gonna be hard for me to describe this. But when you talk to them like I know when somebody is like energetically in like, you see it like they're leaning forward. They're in. They're like they're thinking of other ideas, and they're building on it.

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Heather Jerrehian: When you've lost them. They're a little bit like leaning back, going. Okay? Yeah, okay, yeah. I'll get on that right? And

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Heather Jerrehian: then nothing happens. Right? So it's like.

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Heather Jerrehian: and and that's when I kind of have to pause and say, Hey.

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Heather Jerrehian: are you with me? Or did I lose you? Right like, okay, let's let's get back to where you are. And let's, you know, recalibrate and figure out how to move forward. It's it's really

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Heather Jerrehian: kind of that. It's really being able to read people, and that energy again, you know.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I think

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I think it's sort of more art than science for most people. And so it's that dance we have to do all right. I'm going to add a question, because with your futures, title, and everything that you just dropped in, I'm super curious. What trends do you see? Emerging that you think are going to be important for catalyst executives.

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Heather Jerrehian: So one that I feel pretty clear about is this idea of 3 60 mentoring, meaning that we need the younger generation to help

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Heather Jerrehian: the older generation to understand AI. How to adapt it, how to use it, how to embrace it and not be afraid of it.

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Heather Jerrehian: And

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Heather Jerrehian: as the younger, newer generations come into the workforce as we have more and more technology doing work, and a lot of that mundane, repetitive tasks. The stuff where we actually learn foundational knowledge of how to do our work.

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Heather Jerrehian: We're going to have to give that institutional knowledge to that younger generation. So there's really going to be this interesting shift of

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Heather Jerrehian: different generations, really actually looking for true mentorship and really building that respect and trust across

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Heather Jerrehian: different groups of people. And so I think it's going to be really fun to see how that unfolds.

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Heather Jerrehian: because we all have so much we can learn from each other. And so I think that's what to me is like a really exciting trend that I also think organizations should really start thinking about, because the

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Heather Jerrehian: fear that people have it is real like this isn't just like, Hey, get over it, just do it. This is like the kind of change where like people need to take a breath

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Heather Jerrehian: and do a step by step. I mean, this is paralyzing fear for some people really like you're going to take away the tasks that I understand, like the routine things that I know how to do. And you want AI to automate that. And you want to put me out in the creative land of having to figure out my own path like that

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Heather Jerrehian: could be very scary. And so this goes to the change management that's going to be required with technology. I feel like this technology has like, really brought out like the like awareness of our own humanness, right? Because we're looking at it so closely because we're trying to understand like, how are we? How are we interacting right with these new technologies? And the way I see it is like these human skills.

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Heather Jerrehian: are are going like, it's no longer hard skills. It's human skills, creativity, you know, complex problem solving that are like the new power skills. And so this is really, where, again.

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Heather Jerrehian: change management is so underrated and honestly again, a catalyst moment for anyone listening to this. That is where you can actually get ahead of your competition because it's not just the technology adoption. It's the change management. You bring those 2 things together, and you unlock

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Heather Jerrehian: so much in your organization.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: 100%. We have a vision of having the top 100 catalyst friendly places to work.

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Heather Jerrehian: Because it'll be.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Exactly what you're talking about, right is like those skills that we were asking you like, how do you articulate those power skills? You're calling them like the human skills they become. The thing that's going to help. Organizations, you know, continue to exist, slash, outpace the the competition.

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Heather Jerrehian: Exactly.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I could pick your brain for hours. I know we have to get to the last question.

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Heather Jerrehian: I forgot.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Who's your favorite famous, inspirational catalyst, past or present? And why.

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Heather Jerrehian: Okay. So I would say Brene Brown, because she has really transformed how people understand vulnerability, shame like these are words we don't like to say, right vulnerability, shame, leadership. You know. Her ability to synthesize complex psychological research into accessible insights has like been a catalyst for cultural conversations.

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Heather Jerrehian: So she has been a leader, or she's helped leaders and individuals like rethink how we approach things like courage and connection. And, as a matter of fact, like, I actually pulled out my book, The gifts of imperfection today, because I wanted to remember some of the things I have learned from her, because they are like the things when I read them. I was like

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Heather Jerrehian: they just like hit me squarely between the eyes.

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Heather Jerrehian: and one of them is authenticity. Can't even talk now. Authenticity is the daily practice of letting go of who we think we're supposed to be, and embracing who we are. So I just love that. And then another one that I found that was so interesting is

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Heather Jerrehian: where perfectionism exists.

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Heather Jerrehian: Shame is always lurking. In fact, shame is the birthplace of perfectionism. So I just thought I would share those 2. And then one other thing I want to share, which is one of my very favorite quotes from Mark Twain, that like really keeps me in check, which is

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Heather Jerrehian: what gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure. That isn't so.

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Heather Jerrehian: and that to me.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Jig.

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Heather Jerrehian: Like that helped me so much in just understanding people, and who I am, and how I view the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Okay, I wish my like myself, 20 something years ago, had that last one. But also I just have to say that you could see it in the video with Tracy, and I like the physical letting go when you share the 2, Rene Brown quotes. It's just like, Oh, like my jaw loosened a little bit. It's like, Oh.

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Heather Jerrehian: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: so much, heather. This has been such a fun conversation. I hope it's just the 1st of many.

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Heather Jerrehian: I hope so as well again. When you find your people, you know your people, and and again I have to say a thank you to my friend Julia Martinson, who introduced us because we need to find all the catalysts and make sure that we connect, but that we also go out in the world and make a difference.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: 100%. Amen. Thank you, Julia, love you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and thanks again, Heather, and to our audience, thanks so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out our book, move fast, break ship, burnout, or go to our website at callousconstellations.com.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And because I know you loved this episode because Shannon and I are totally tingling. Take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, and for those other catalysts in your life, be sure to hit the share button and send a link their way.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you again.

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Heather Jerrehian: Thank you.