Dr. Patti Fletcher, author of Disrupters: From Transactional to Transformational Leadership

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon Lucas, one of the co-ceos at Catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break, shit burn out where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today I am thrilled to have time with Dr. Patty Fletcher. Welcome, Patty.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Likewise

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Dr. Patty is renowned for her expertise in disruption and in catalyzing and sustaining large-scale transformation is a trailblazer in gender equity and the future of work. Her career has been marked by a category, creation and disruption with brands, including sap, Ibm. Workhuman and limeade, which was acquired by Webmd congrats.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Dr. Patty is currently the chief strategy and practice officer at Talentline, and chief marketing officer at Leap great, where she continues her transformative work at the intersection of people, business, technology, and data. She is the best selling author of the book disruptors which I highly recommend success strategies from women who break the mold, and she's a frequent keynote speaker. She holds several advanced degrees in business and organizational

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: leadership, and as a sought after voice, both in the boardroom and in the media. So we're super lucky to have you today.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Obviously, I just read like the very high level version of your journey. But we'd love to hear more about your catalytic journey, maybe sharing a few career highlights that you're proud of, that help us see your catalytic nature.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I love that. And again, thanks for for having me, and a huge shout out to Dan Ward, who I know you. You have.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Absolutely. Thank you, Dan.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: So you know I I it's always interesting, isn't it, Shannon, to have someone read your bio right who you are on paper, and it's supposed to impress and all that. Meanwhile, I'm still like that 12 year old girl who grew up in small town, Pembroke, Massachusetts, and can hardly believe anyone listens to me, let alone pays to work with me right? Which is pretty crazy. So you know, I'm someone who and I I'm sure that the majority of your audience can identify with this someone who

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: really wants to live an authentic life right? There's something inside of them that is saying. You know what it's time to get past this whole thing around.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: You know what is your purpose when the truth is, your life is the purpose.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Where? What are those callings that you're going to to be able to like? Listen to and use what it is you have the things you can do, the passion. You have the people in your life that can catalyze that kind of change

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and not everyone's like that. I didn't realize that Shannon, until, like my thirties, that not everyone was like that. And that that's okay, right? Because it's really it's really something that is a personal journey. For me. It's a a wanting to make an impact on the world that I feel is positive and on the world I left behind. And it's also something I know that nobody gets to the finish line alone, and that if someone is not on

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: part of this journey or with it right, there's nothing wrong with that. And so for me, it's I am an introvert, disguised as an extrovert, and most people will completely balk at that. The folks who know me because I am out there in the world, but they don't see is me exhausted that I leave.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and so for me, when I think about my journey.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and when I've been doing a lot of kind of soul searching. And my my friend, dear friend Pramuk Jaya Philic, who is the the CEO and co-founder of talent line, and that is a a area. He grew up as a chro for big companies. Amazon. Google, Microsoft fidelity right? Like. So he's been at that kind of forefront of of the business of people in in tech

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and we're all about kind of infusing all the goodness right from a company perspective. But I was talking with him, and he said, I think it was a saying from someone else, pretty sure, although he's a smart guy, and he said, You know we are who we are because of who we are.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and for me, going backwards, which is something I very rarely do. But when I go backwards and look at my life and look at the themes of my life and look at my journey, it's so freaking, obvious, and if you haven't done this, do it kind of go through specific memories of your life, and at the end bring out what are those common themes, and my common themes are joy.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: which is the opposite of fear. I grew up with a very fear. Based culture, right? Post world War 2. You know you've got to get a job. It's got to be safe, you know. You've got to go do these things.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And that's so limiting to me. I'm also the granddaughter of 2 genocide survivors which really informs pretty much everything I do.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: The next is freedom. Right? So again, genocide, you know, you're worried. Everything's going to be taken away from you because, literally, everything has been taken away from you. The people you love, your ability to kind of make your way through the world with the money that you have, and that's really informed this kind of scarcity thing inside of me.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And so the opposite right of that kind of being oppressed being beholden to something outside of me that doesn't feel natural to me. That's what freedom is right. It's that serenity, that harmony.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And then the final thing is transformation. When I look at my family's history, my mom, who's the daughter of my grandparents, my mom is 1st generation Armenian.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: American and her parents both survived the genocide. Her mother was orphaned in the genocide. Her sisters went through unimaginable things. None of them had agency at all in their lives, particularly my grandmother. And so when I look at and yes, like most people right, I have asked myself, what would I do if those things that happened to them happened to me, and we're kind of in a world where many of us feel

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: the difference between me and them are a few things 1st is, it didn't happen from the day I was born, like it did for my grandmother share misfortune of being a female right, being born, a certain religion, a certain ethnicity, a certain time when the genocide was happening. She was literally born when it was happening. The 1st kind of few 1915.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I here I am, right. Born in 1969. Yeah, the color of my skin matters in this country. But I have a big mouth and big ears, and I can't seem to shut either of them. And when I look through the themes of my life, that's just I'm just someone who

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: is really comfortable being uncomfortable in difficult conversations. And so my ability to transform right kind of condition myself continuously to get to that top of Maslow's. It's not a hierarchy, it's a steep mountain and be with less oxygen for self. Actualization is literally the difference between

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and my ancestors, and that's what my life has been like, and that's what the catalysts have been. And so for me as I,

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I, kinda you know, look through things, and I see what brought me to where I am today. I can't help but think about like my dad, Mr. Military, Mr. If women want equal rights, you need to open your own damn doors. Meanwhile everything he did pretty much showed he was a feminist. Right from things like making sure he was a institutional

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: chef. He he was a chef at large hospitals, and so his succession plan. He was executive. Chef was always the women, because they showed up. They did the hard work right. He made sure they were paid equally, and all those things because it was right.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: But the thing with me was I used to get in trouble for talking too much in school.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and I would ask nonstop questions, and my parents would go to these. You know. I know you're laughing, because it's probably same with you. Go to these conferences, right? And you know, this is in the 19 seventies. It was a different school culture. Back then and definitely where I grew up, and so they would say to my parents, She talks too much. She asked too many questions, and my dad would be like good, and he'd come home and say to me, That's their job, Patty

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Nice, asking the questions, question authority, right? And so it really instilled those things.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hmm.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And my mom was a cut through. The noise, you know, told me I could do and be anything I wanted to be. As long as I worked hard enough, my parents used to tell me I was going to be President, or a Supreme Court justice, or, you know, replace Walter Cronkite or Peter Jennings, right, which is really where I wanted to go, because I loved investigative journalism.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And so those those were the things that really informed. And when I think about you know you had asked about like, what are some of those things that happened in your career that you're proud of, that represent that.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I'd say you know, overall being a leader, and I'm someone who's never bought into leader is a position right? Leader is kind of a way of being. And it really has been up until this point. And I do think we need a new paradigm. We grew up going from transactional leadership, which is what we're seeing. Now, I give you this. You give me that to once the knowledge worker thing really took over around transformational leadership. There is a vision.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: We're all gonna come together. Everybody finds purpose and meaning in their work and lines, their passion with their profession, and we create high performing teams that come together to achieve things that they couldn't, you know, achieve. And your job as a leader is really to sweep the debris out of the way. That's your job. Here are the expectations right? I trust you. Tell me what you need. I'll get the debris out of the way, even though most times it's the people who are the debris, including the person trying to make the change.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And so when I I look at leadership and I look at both when I've held positional leadership. And and when I haven't.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I really believe that the number one job is to to raise the next generation of leaders, my age older than me, younger than me. I have about 10 Ceos that I've raised under my belt countless c-suite in probably 7 board members, maybe 10.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Wow!

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: It's exciting. Yeah, to be part of someone's journey as they're catalyzing change, right? Which is really how you get to these these positions is really great. Because man, it's every mix of emotion, all in one right. It's just incredible. And it should be hard.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And when I really started focusing in on women, and and you know some of the work I did there after my Phd. That I went for when I was in my thirties, still working full time, still flying around in an airplane. My daughter, younger daughter, used to say that mommy for a living. My, nobody can tell you what I do for a living. It's hilarious. But, Mom, what does she do for a living? Well, she laughs on the phone, yells at her computer and flies around on an airplane all day.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Pretty.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Inaccurate. Right? So so when I when I look at all of that, and I look at being a woman navigating, that when I look at the women I've worked with, we're not asking for things to be easier.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: We expect that they should be more fair, and we know that's equity, not equality. We're not even close to equality. Right? So that's super important. And you're not gonna love what I'm going to say right now because of the way that that you talk about your incredible work that you do. So I'm like, gonna beg you to think about changing the word empower

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: advice.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Oh, I I totally agree. I read your book. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Please say what you're gonna say. But like I highlighted in the book, and I'm you don't need to convince me. Yep.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And so so what these women, you know, I really just kind of go right? Like, how do you help women find their voice. No, they've already. They've always had a voice. It's just none of us have been listening. They don't need to be empowered right and power, as you know from the book, is, if I give you power, I can also take it away. Sorry, Mr. CEO, don't empower me, enable and equip me right.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: the right environment that's inclusive. So not that I can point at you and say you belong, but I can look in the mirror and say I belong. That's a difference, right? And that yes, things will be hard. But what can we do to ensure that they are fair, really important, which brings me to the next 2 things.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: So the 1st is the impact that right I've been able to have in helping folks that probably would have gotten there, anyway, right? So it's pretty cool to to be able to to do that and hear back from them really nice things. About the difference that was made. That was pretty cool.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: But the other 2 pieces really relate to what I just said, and and that has been my deep fascination with leadership overall, which is ultimately, you know, who has power, who gets to keep the power? Who gets to wield the power? That's pretty much everything that we go through in life. Why, we have wars right? Why, people get fired! Why, there are no women in the boardroom, you know all that that's informed there.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and those 2 other things are, of course, the book, which was a feat all in its own, and the other was the work that I got to be part of at sap. Years and years ago a few of us got together. I was one of the leaders, and we did some really deep research, understanding the key decision points along a human being's life cycle in.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: To understand where their power could be most hindered or harnessed when it came to their direct relationships. Right people don't leave a job. They leave a boss. That was a brand new concept back then. And this thing called a nudge was brand new, right? And so we were using at the Time training machine learning. AI as we know it today, didn't exist. So we're trying to train on different phrases different words, all of that to nudge

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: a manager along those key decision points, starting from who applies all the way to who leaves, and why? Right and everything in between to not blame and shame them a lesson I learned the hard way doesn't work as much as I try but instead to have the machine really kind of bring it back to.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: So when you're making this decision, you know, how does it align with that blah blah? Right? So really help them kind of do this thing that stops unconscious bias in its traps. And it's called decision interruption. You and I are as biased as they come. It's the human condition, and that's a whole other set of podcasts we can talk about and what that looks like. And how did we get here? But you know, instead, this really isn't blame and shame. It's hey, you know, kind of let me use the machine to take a step back

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and really kind of question the why we get so focused in our world on the what people think. When the truth is, it's about how they think and why they think that way. Which is why I love having a Phd. And not just being a business executive right? That research science piece also helps as a marketer to have that and then the other piece is that book, and you know, when you read probably the book, the the

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: is it the epilogue or the prologue? The things at the end. Oh, my God! Anyway, when.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Yeah, when you read that, it's not funny. I'm 55 people when you read that at the end, and I don't know if you did, but it really captures why I wrote this book, and so very quickly for folks.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: so the the story at the end is about Chris Bojali, and he's a famous novelist. He's obviously Armenian. We Armenians look for anyone whose last name is in Ian or YAN. And we come and find each other because we're like point 0 0 7% of the population, we get a stick together.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And so when everyone's been impacted by the genocide, you know, who walks this earth if they're Armenian. So anyway, he talks about being on a book tour, and he's in Armenia. My people are not from Armenia. They're from Turkey, Armenia, but that's our our homeland. He's in Armenia, and he is about to leave this place. God! I can't remember the name of it like said in Cush or something. It's 1 of the locations

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: where it was Turkey. It's 1 of the locations where the the soldiers came, and they would march people to their death. Death off this cliff.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and nobody talks about it. It's a you can't talk about the genocide when you're there. So because it didn't happen right? So, anyway. So he's there, and he and his van full of of support. People are about to leave, and this man comes running at them and says, Don't leave. I want you to come. Meet my mother-in-law.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Okay, fine. So they follow this guy, you know, windy roads down a village, and they meet this woman. I think she's in her mid to late nineties, very, very old.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and he meets her.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and they realize it was never about them meeting her. It was about her meeting them, because Shannon, she thought she was the last Armenian on earth.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: It turns out she was the infant who was she was being held by her mom. Her dad was already killed, and they were about to be pushed off the cliff, and this

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Turkish soldier, which happened a lot found was like, She's beautiful. I'm going to marry her, and raised this child as his own.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and this was their grandchild, or sorry, this was their son. Yeah, this was their son.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Son daughters. Sorry this was their daughter's husband. Excuse me, and you know I just love that inside this family they knew that they were Armenian. Usually they didn't, but this woman thought she was the last one on earth, and that was perfect.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I have spent a lifetime. I know you have. I know other women have. Heck. I know men and non-binary people who think things, who see things that people don't relate to. They don't understand, and they think they're the only ones. And the truth is, there is more of us than there are us. So those are my 3 things. It's all been about, you know, aligning back to the change.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing like just haunting, haunting the stories. I guess I would love to sort of pivot into the next question, because you end up calling the people disruptors. And you're like, there's not. We're not alone. There's a there's we're out there. How do you connect what you learned about disruptors with the concept of catalyst. And how has that supported you on your journey?

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Yeah, you know, I think catalyst is what you need to create the disruption. And so these, these are both words that get thrown around right? So and especially disruption, which has been synonymous with innovation. And I'm also just gonna say I grew up in tech. So I think it's probably the same in other industries, but I know it's it's more deep seated, and we all want to be. You know, the black sheep in that family we all want to be that the rebel and we're a hoodie and stuff kidding on that last one.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: But, anyway, so what that means? Right? So for me disruption had 3 distinct components. I've now added a 4.th

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: So when you go to the Silicon Valley, which is absolutely and you know, in the book, I call it a meritocracy, right? Hiring, not a meritocracy. Looks like me thinks like me. That's the majority of of the corporate world which is really a shame. So when we go to the Silicon Valley, this the Startup capital, which again another topic.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and we see what they believe makes a great disruption, a great startup. They say, Okay, it's gonna be more efficient. It's gonna cost less money. Take less time. And you know what they're right. That's important. Whether it's a business thing or it's a personal thing. I don't want to waste money or time. I don't have it right. I can replace money. I can't replace my time.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: The next piece is effective, achieves what you want it to achieve makes perfect sense. Otherwise, why would I be engaging? Why would I be buying. Why would I be spending time and money doing it? And then they kind of stop right there.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Disruption from my perspective is when you see a status quo that absolutely is inefficient. Too much time, too much money ineffective, doesn't achieve what the whole purpose is that you wanted it to achieve. Usually in Silicon Valley. It means we're going to give you the solution and forget what the word solution means. There's a problem, okay, fine and then, which is a problem when only tech folks and not domain folks get involved. And then the the piece I add on is equitable.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: positively impacts the greatest number of people not reaches the largest number of users people might sign on once they are not gonna come back. If it doesn't positively impact.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Component.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: That's a product that's a technology. It doesn't matter. And I've recently added on. So I have some new thoughts on leadership models that that I've been working on, and we'll continue to work on over the years. And that is economic

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: meaning. Not only does it fuel the company inside, but it impacts positively the economy and the communities in which it serves. That's informed by women. Specifically, the last 2 equity. Because it's all about relationships, isn't it. It's all about culture, and women are relational in our decision making men are more transactional. We can talk about that if we want

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: the last piece is economic women reinvest 90% of what they make into the communities around them. Jobs, right funding, you know, charities, libraries, whatever that might be.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And so when we think about what is the impact that I can make as a disruptor, it's not just my little fiefdom within an industry. It's actually the world around us. And that's needed. We need new skills. Right? We know world economic forum, 33% of the skills that exist today will be obsolete within the next 3 years, 89% of us have to upscale within the next 3 years. Right? There's that.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: It also does make me think about new types of leadership models that have to happen. So when I think about things around being a catalyst, I think, okay, so what am IA catalyst for well, our leadership models today are still largely based on scarcity. In order for me to win, you have to lose and vice versa, even in transformation, right?

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: What about abundance? Why can't we all win right? And I don't mean everybody gets a trophy like I'm not into that. I mean that we all figure out how to to bring awesomeness in the world when my sales go down. Yes, can I turn them around? You sure can right absolutely. But how do we? Are we more inclusive so that we can do that?

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And then, therefore, is there a new triple bottom line right, which requires a catalyst. So right now, people absolutely do return for their investors right? Public, private. It doesn't matter. Some folks have added on to additional things happy customers, happy employees as their triple bottom line.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: For me. I see the only way we catalyze a future where the best innovations come, where the most people can win absolutely. You can build wealth, but not at the cost of others. And why should you want to?

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Is that if we are able to use catalyst get moving. It doesn't matter if it's the right foot or the wrong foot it literally. You don't know what you can do until you start, and that is toward a new leadership.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: triple bottom line in which companies see themselves as citizens of the globe. Because that's what they are. They're the most important because they have the most money.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and they are focused in on one humanity. What is their contribution to things like the climate about equity? Making sure? 8 billion people, you know, are skilled have what they need, because it's only going to help your business and money. More money will flow through.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: The next is, innovation doesn't have to be tech right? But are we doing things that are more efficient, more effective, more equitable.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And then the final thing is the economy like it or not. Money flows through world. Economic Forum is elitist as they are. They're the one organization that really helps us understand. Going back to where is the power who has the power, who gets to wield it because they track how money flows through. We can't do those things

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: without catalyzing, and not everybody can wait for an event to catalyze right. Some of us are the event. I don't think you can have both without the other, and that's 1 of my more grateful reasons to Dan for introducing us, because, Shannon, it didn't hit me until I started reading. What you do.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing. Thank you. So I just have to share. This is just a personal share. My personal mission in life is to make the world's largest organizations, more sustainable in every sense of the word, for people, for planet, for profit.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So I totally agree. And I share that because I would love to sort of pivot into, you know, when you were in large organizations like, clearly, this is where you've where you've landed, and you mentioned in your book like you had your own pivot at 1 point, thinking about living your authentic life. And I loved also the the work life integration. Because that's how I think about it, especially for women, too. But so maybe what were some of the challenges as you were trying to drive positive change in the large organizations. And

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: how did you overcome them? Because, sadly, most of the world still, it's it's improving like the business roundtable came out with, you know, stakeholder capitalism, etc. But when you're trying to go, make the case for change, and some of the variables are your number one and your number 2, the humanity or the innovation. Not everyone inside the organization totally gets that.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Yeah. When did when did they come up with the stakeholder capitalism? When was that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Oh, that's a good 2019, I think.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Yeah, so that I've been around for years, right? And so the fact that it's been around for years, I'm very happy. And don't even get me started on Sheryl Sandberg and lean in very happy that there are certain things that brought stuff to the mainstream that have been around a lot, or you know, the next

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: sorry white dude writes a book about, you know, being inclusive or whatever. And you're just like dude. Really, it's been around for a while. And so I love that. So, yeah. So the reason that I'm able to work with large companies is because I've been in large companies, and I've had to navigate large companies, and it goes back to

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: who gets to have it? Who gets to wield it right. And the way that you keep your power, instead of sharing your power, is by keeping people around you who want to keep you in power.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: When we look at concepts which really piss me off like the Queen bee syndrome. That's this misogynistic viewpoint that some women, in order to survive within organizations, have felt the need to exhibit. Other women will call this out, and I'll say I'm so sorry you haven't been supported. There are jerks in every culture. I have had more support from women. But my question to you is, how are you supporting the women

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: around you? Don't be so freaking, entitled so when I look, when I look at that right? There's more. There's room for all of us, right? We have to maybe let go of the upper out. We need to remember. Not. Everybody wants to be chairperson, some interesting data on that I can share.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And so when I think about my own thing, it's been about power. It's been going back to the reason for the book that I see things other people don't see, simply because I'm typically the only woman in the room because I am a scholar practitioner, right? I'm never going to work in academia. God bless those people! It's never going to happen.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: But what I do have is I have a deep understanding at a scholarly level for different organizational models, different constructs, different leadership models. I understand very, very deeply the motivations of people right and how to

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: people want change. They don't want to change right? I mean, that's just every leader I've ever worked with, you know, as a catalyst, right? I know as a disruptor, and that change people don't change when you tell them to change, they change when you enable them to change, which is why 70% of change programs or large scale transformation fails. So when I look at my own things, a few things come up and some I have to be careful with, because I've

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: agreements have are gonna cause me.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Understood? You can. Yeah, extract totally. Yup.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Yeah. Yeah. So when I think about a few things, I think about trying to get more women working to get more women in tech more developers. And

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: you know that that was as if I was murdering somebody's favorite child. It was just awful and very like support. And then, all of a sudden, when other folks pushed back right. I think I talk about in the book one of the things that happened the 1st things I did after my dissertation, which was a phenomenological study of women who held board of director positions, and at the time

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: the only tech intensive industries there were which were tech itself and life sciences. And for me, I focus on tech. I love tech. It changes everything. Just look at our world. Who wouldn't want to be part of that

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: more efficient, effective, and equitable. And now every industry isn't just a tech industry, every function isn't just a tech function, but it's now getting to be an AI industry. And Hi AI, which is incredible, just have to be responsible with that. And it's terrifying. And so I'm pretty busy. But when I look at you know, being a scholar, one of the things I would say to folks is, take all that stuff with a grain of salt, because the majority of these people have never had to live with the decision.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: When.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Sorry just to take all of what stuff with a grain of salt.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: All the advice that you read all of the things you read from academics. They give you models, they

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: study at a very high level. What the you know, the proof that they have so and so company did these things right, and we see it across the board. They may consult, but they've never been an operator, a C-suite operator. They've never been an employee. They do not know what it's like to be the recipient of those changes, or to make

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: those changes, and have to be accountable and live with them. So I, I personally am very grateful that I have what I have. It also drives me crazy.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: So when I use that lens, and I look back at the times that I've been on stage where I've had

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: a lot of developers, mostly male in an audience, and I had a panel.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: It was in the, I think, probably like 2,009 or something, and it was at a tech conference for developers, enterprise software developers. And it was this community of a few 1 million of them. And they they vote on the topics and whatever. And we were brought our way in. And so we talked about getting more women into the developer world in a community that only had 8% women. And those 8% didn't want to be that girl right? So the audience turned on me.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and it was pretty ugly, and the aftermath was pretty ugly, and all the dudes that all the the male executives who were pro this because it made them look great all of a sudden went quiet right, and it was. It was pretty bad.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And when I I ended up going, and these were very influential voices who were really not great, they represented customers and partners, and hundreds of millions of dollars.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and I licked my wounds right there were. It was like blogs were early on. I mean it was. It was like the early days, and I had actually Shannon went and found each and every one of them.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Wow!

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Oh, yeah, and some of them now are the best the best feminists I know, and that's when I learned before Harvard came out with the research that if a man has a daughter

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: everything can change, because all of a sudden he starts thinking, Oh, my goodness, right! My daughter is not going to have the same opportunities as someone else's sons, not their wife, not their sister, not their niece. Not

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: right. So it was the understanding of not everybody's going to be on your side or on your topic side, and that in order to create change where people, when you're disrupting someone's status quo. You are disrupting either something they're thriving in, or at least comfortable in right. And then there are others like me that I'm like. Yay, let's do it right, and I might be.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: You don't want to partner with.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: but you have to meet them where they are right.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Right.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Meet them where they are, and see if you can find a catalyst for them to change. So that was awesome. The other thing I learned there no blaming and shaming everything I did on that stage. They felt like I was calling them out.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I have to say that's something that I'm not happy with my response, because I started over correcting to make it okay. And I will say.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Still have folks who try to hire me for speaking where I'm literally told you got to make it okay for the for the men, and I can't do that. I can include them. I can help them be an enemy of the status quo, because allyship's not enough. But I am not going to do that.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: The next thing is

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: was related somewhat to that, you know, work that I had talked about with

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: with using nudge, using machine learning to detect, prevent and eventually eradicate unconscious bias. One of my favorite things I've ever worked on incredible team. Just just awesome team and

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: 8.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: It it fizzled out because it wasn't a corporate priority right

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: years. It was a marketing thing. And so and then I was told from a few mentors all male again worked in tech. If it's so important to you to do that work, leave

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: got it.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: So what I ended up finding out. And this is a huge lesson for catalysts. It's a huge lesson for disruptors, for people who believe they see things that others don't see. Here's the thing I have to tell you. It's kind of like that Einstein thing with the fish up the tree. You are most likely on the right stage. You're probably just in front of the wrong audience.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Nope, find that audience in right.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Large company. Guess what? I found my audience. We were able to create the change, not just for our customers, but within the organization. Bill Mcdermott right at the time. CEO of Sap. You see his name at the top of my book, right? This is a big deal. He had just released his book on leadership. So you will find, and if you don't, you have a decision to make, this is your life, your work. So bringing people along

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: finding your people. And then the final thing is, so

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I do. A lot of market disruption, right? Category creation. And pretty early in my career there was a disruption I wanted to to bring to market, and I can't talk too much about it, but essentially within an existing market

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I saw an opportunity, and it was a little weird, but I saw it, and it was with a potential competitor who we could partner with. This was before cooperation was a thing, and I was so shamed it was awful. It was terrible, and it was just terrible, and it was kind of public and and so I remember going to one of my favorite bosses, and he's like.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Did you socialize this? Did you, you know, get get people in the room who could talk for you, and that's when I learned that there were 2 things, regardless of what is kind of coming up against you, because if you're a catalyst or a disruptor. Trust me, right? You're disrupting someone's status quo. They're they're gonna come at you

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: in order to succeed. You need 2 things, and it's so conducive to women. You need a plan. The plan has to have pivots. It has to have all that stuff.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: But you also need a community.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Right. Men create networks. Women create relationships. We create community. We understand. And Bill Mcdermott actually shared this.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Not everybody is going to like change leading it, navigating it. It's like Whitewater Rapids, right above a rock, below a walk around a rock. Not all boulders matter. The other thing is just because people don't jump in and help. Your road doesn't mean they're the enemy. It simply means they have other priorities. And that's okay. Don't take them on right. Don't take them on. And the final thing I'll say I hate when people ask me like, what would you like advice? Would you give your younger self. My answer is always none, because I wouldn't have listened to me anyway.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: But what I wished I knew all those years back when I think about that room and being ridiculed, and all the stuff I know about gaslight communicating, and all that stuff is great. But underlying all of that was, I did grow up a working class girl.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: absolutely no family with any access to wealth, no connections had, you know. We they didn't make a lot of money right? So there's this whole world that I didn't have access to that I was launched into. And of course you know, didn't go to tier one. Schools didn't do all that stuff so imposter syndrome which a lot of we talk about.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And what I realized pretty quickly, thank God, was that

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I was focused and being conditioned to focus on the wrong thing.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I was being conditioned to believe that I had to prove my worth, because that's what everyone told me. I was also told, fake it till you make it, which is the worst advice you can ever give anyone. Give me a break.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: instead. It was simply delivering my worth.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: going back to transformational leadership. Here's your job. Here are the expectations. Go for it. Let me know what you need help. If I'm focused on trying to please others, and I have no idea who they are, and they probably don't know what it.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: what it's gonna take to please them, because the higher up in an organization particularly large ones you go the more you realize nobody knows what the hell they're doing, and they're just kinda right. There's no confidence there, because you're doing things you've never done before with people. You're kind of learning, but you you get more comfortable with your competence, right? I'll figure it out.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And so like those those things really came through right around delivering your worth all of a sudden. It's the impact. It's the efficiency, it's the effectiveness. And then the final thing is, do it in a way that makes you happy. The rhythm of your day, the rhythm of your life that's up to you.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: even in an office that's up to you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amen. I mean, there's not much. There's not much more that I can say. Those are all amazing. Bring people along, find your people, create the plan, but also the ability to pivot and particularly focus on community. And we know, like, our research shows that catalysts in particular really need the community piece.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Oh, yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Because doing the 1st part, actually the bringing people along. It's it's exhausting. It is the emotional emotional labor of change. If I want you to lean into change. It's on me, as you said, to not alienate or blame and shame, but even beyond that really sense, with all of my sensing capabilities. What the win is for you, what's holding you back and bring you on board.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: which leads to the draining. And so it's so funny because we'll get catalysts in a room, and they will like show for this 1 h call. They're like, I really don't have time for this. I'm so busy. I'm so drainable. And by the end they're like, Oh, I'm so recharged because we just the frictionless and the support that comes naturally.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And the yeah, the thing about the imposter syndrome is super important. You know the not feeling like you need to demonstrate your worth in that external way, but finding ways to that are aligned with. I think that you know, when you talk about that in your book in the pivot. And it's been really true for me, too, which is just like what is the life that I want to construct? It's always been non traditional for me, too, but it's like finding that balance that, you know. Sometimes you you wobble a little bit like, come back to that authentic part that you started off with at the beginning of our conversation. So.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And you just reminded me so. A few things emotional labor of change. I will quote you, but I'm going to use the hell out of that. And I love that. You also said all the senses. It wasn't until I was like I was today, years old. It wasn't until last summer that I realized why everyone's like I'm a visual learner never occurred. I'm a feeler. I have to feel a change. I have to feel.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's right.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: By the rhythm in life. So you had said so. I just

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: I'm learning so much here, even though I'm the one who can't seem to shut up, but when you speak you literally just go right to the core, and I love that see everybody catalysts and disruptors constantly learning and feeding off each other. So now I know it's like to be in a room with you, and I can't wait to be in another room, but you just said. You know you had mentioned earlier around how integration instead of balance. And you talked about balance here. And I I have changed my mind a bit since this book, or I should say I've learned more

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: when I think about integration back then it made perfect sense. Right? Women, you know, you and I grew up at a time, and it wasn't until I really started getting in with millennials that they changed my mind where you're one person at work, and another person at home, and that always bothered me. But that's how it was.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and I never quite understood it

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: until I hired my my 1st super freaking star millennial, another multi CEO out of Stanford. And he said, Patty, it's weird, but your generation thanks. You know I'd never do business with someone. I wouldn't be friends with, and I'd never be friends with someone I wouldn't do business with. And I'm like, Oh, I love you, love you

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: but instead of balance and integration, which integration was better. That really puts your calendar at odds. Right? Time is the one thing we can't replace. It's finite. And so you're constantly battling on your calendar, which is why we have all these AI tools, right? All that stuff. Why, you know, I personally live from my calendar.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: And instead, it's about Harmony.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: How is one thing I'm doing, fueling? The next thing I'm doing, knowing full many things I have to do, and I don't know. I am not an Admin girl. Nobody wants me to manage anything, and if you do good luck with that right.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But I.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Can do that and experience it through suffering.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: or I can do that and experience it through curiosity. Right? Oh, my gosh! What did I find here? That's interesting. Should I really have done that? Could it have been there versus pay the bills right? Do my travel and expenses and all that stuff there's just a different way, and it comes back to. And I was very grateful for sap

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: when I worked with them. They did so much fueling. We went from time management to energy management, right? And it was a little too new for me at the time. But all of these things are true for catalysts and for disruptors. Your life is going to be exhausting. And like my mother, said Patty, you can't help but learn the wrong way, or the hard way that's us. That's how we are. We're built.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: and these are things that will fuel you. And you don't need to lose yourself. And that's right that community to remind you how supported you are, how seen you are, and that no one gets to the finish line alone.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's right. We I'm going to wrap up in a sec. But we we you know, our book is like, we don't promise that you're not going to have burnout as a catalyst. But it's like, how do you minimize the amplitude and frequency of it? And paying attention to harmony is really lovely. And I also just want to say, while the subtitle of the book for this is for women you do have at least one call. I mean, everyone should read it. The date is amazing, but you have one call out for fathers with daughters that you like are specifically

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: so if you just want to jump to that. I think it's interesting for everybody, Patty. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. This was such an amazing conversation, and I'm looking forward to the next ones.

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Dr. Patti Fletcher: Me, too. Thank you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And to our listening audience. Thanks so much for joining us. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out our book, move fast, break, shit, burn out, or go to our website at catalystconstellations.com. If you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Please take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and of course. If you have other catalysts or disruptors in your life, hit the share button and send a link their way. Thanks again.