Dr. Ebrahim Patel, Future Markets and Sustainability executive at RMB Bank: Innovative Empathy

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon, Lucas.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm Tracy Lovejoy. We're the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break, shit burnout. Where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today I am thrilled to have Dr. Ibrahim Patel Ibrahim specializes in financial innovation Esg. And sustainability and Islamic finance. His focus is on developing the capital markets of the future with a particular focus on the theme of sustainability.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: He has more than 20 years experience in investment, banking, spending the last 13 years in financial markets and trading environment.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: In the field of innovation he's led the development of several South African and World 1st financial product offerings. Dr. Patel has degrees in applied math, statistics, law, philosophy, and a Phd. In finance from Wits business school. You should definitely check out his Phd thesis. It's absolutely fascinating, Ibrahim lovely to have you with us.

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Ebrahim Patel: Thank you so much, Shen, and thank you, Tracy, appreciate it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: All right. So that's a short synopsis of your journey. But we'd love to hear in your own words about your catalytic journey, maybe sharing a few career highlights that you're proud of, that help us see your catalytic nature.

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Ebrahim Patel: Super. So from my side, you know, I think think my Catholic thinking became apparent

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Ebrahim Patel: in my academic background as a start. So you know I've always been someone that's been interested in understanding things from 1st principles.

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Ebrahim Patel: And you know, whenever I saw there was another avenue, another aspect of knowledge, I always wanted to dig deeper

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Ebrahim Patel: and understand that as well. You know, I was never really happy

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Ebrahim Patel: to take things at face value, and so

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Ebrahim Patel: I think my catalytic journey has started

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Ebrahim Patel: from my educational background. It's quite varied, you know, as you said in my bio, I've studied a number of different fields because I've got a natural curiosity about things.

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Ebrahim Patel: and I think that's led me to question

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Ebrahim Patel: basic status quo. And from looking at things at 1st principles.

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Ebrahim Patel: what really catches me is how things can change when you tinker with those 1st principles. Some of the things that I'm really happy with are

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Ebrahim Patel: the products that I've been a part of creating products that have achieved 1st in the capital markets for investors and for market structures. And also, you know, looking at traditional asset classes. One of my favorite ones is gold.

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Ebrahim Patel: where, you know, I pioneered the listing of a gold bond that actually paid interest in gold, and that was very interesting for me, because conventional wisdom up to that time was that gold is an asset

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Ebrahim Patel: that does not pay you a yield. In fact, you pay in carry costs and going back to 1st principles. Looking at the gold market, you know, it really became a challenge to say, Well, how do we change that. How do we turn gold into an asset class that can also pay you an interest rate in gold? So you know, that's 1 example of where I really enjoyed looking at the problem.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm curious. It's a fascinating example. Can you talk a little bit about like the challenges that you encountered trying to create that new business model, and how your catalytic skills helped you be successful.

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Ebrahim Patel: So I think the 1st challenge.

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Ebrahim Patel: as of trying to do anything new is

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Ebrahim Patel: to convince a network of your peers that it actually is possible.

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Ebrahim Patel: and many times you find that the idea that you have in your mind.

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Ebrahim Patel: if you take a singular view on it, if you say I'm going to do everything

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Ebrahim Patel: or the business unit that I'm in is going to do everything. You're going to find that you struggle.

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Ebrahim Patel: And what really helped us unlock

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Ebrahim Patel: this opportunity, was looking at the financial ecosystem as a whole

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Ebrahim Patel: and looking at the various parts of the business.

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Ebrahim Patel: And when you look with an ecosystem view, you actually realize that you don't need to recreate certain components that you need for the solution.

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Ebrahim Patel: They're found in other parts of the business. There's people doing it already.

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Ebrahim Patel: others in a different context. And then the skill goes from actually building capacity

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Ebrahim Patel: to rather selling a vision, working with people, growing your team

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Ebrahim Patel: and allowing everyone to come on the journey with you. So, and I've seen this trend over and over again in the various

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Ebrahim Patel: new initiatives that I've undertaken is ecosystem thinking building of a team sharing of a vision, I think, is quite critical in helping you overcome the barriers that you face

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Ebrahim Patel: when you're dealing in a sophisticated financial market in a large corporate odds are a lot of the components already exist.

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Ebrahim Patel: To be fair, you know, there isn't too much in terms of base infrastructure

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Ebrahim Patel: that you always need to create. It exists in some form in another part of the organization, probably being applied to solving a different problem.

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Ebrahim Patel: And if you can build relationships, and if you can look wider

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Ebrahim Patel: beyond your immediate surroundings, you often find

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Ebrahim Patel: that you find these solutions embedded elsewhere, and you find that this natural catalyst and innovators?

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Ebrahim Patel: In many different places? And sometimes you think, you know, will this team come across? Am I going to get someone that chairs division.

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Ebrahim Patel: But when you sit down and you discuss it, you actually realize that there's a true innovator on the other side of the table.

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Ebrahim Patel: and I think there's a lot of people would like to do innovative things would like to get out of their comfort zone. And if you can provide a platform for doing that.

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Ebrahim Patel: Then I think you find people are motivated. They're enthusiastic, and you don't need to

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Ebrahim Patel: to force them along. You know I've always had very enthusiastic responses.

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Ebrahim Patel: because I've always believed in building a team

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Ebrahim Patel: around the idea and letting people own the piece that they contributing.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: We don't often hear, so I'm so curious to follow up here we don't often hear. So you started by sharing the challenge.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: It could be a challenge to convince a network of peers.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And then, you concluded with people want to jump in and support innovation.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I feel like you must have a secret.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Ibram. How do you get them to be excited to jump in for innovation? Because often we hear about resistance that can happen.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So how do you get from? How do you convince them?

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I think, too, them jumping in.

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Ebrahim Patel: So I think it's a matter of understanding what we mean by resistance.

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Ebrahim Patel: So I think oftentimes resistance is interpreted as

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Ebrahim Patel: people don't buy into my idea. They won't allow it, etc.

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Ebrahim Patel: And I think it's the duty of the inquiring mind

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Ebrahim Patel: to actually break that down. And you know, maybe this is academic thinking coming into play. But you actually want to understand this concept of approaching from 1st principles really helps in this regard

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Ebrahim Patel: because you do get opposition. But what's important is to invite the person to explore why this doesn't work for them.

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Ebrahim Patel: What are the concerns? And you often find that the concerns are not conceptual so conceptually.

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Ebrahim Patel: especially in the day of innovation that we are living in. In recent times

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Ebrahim Patel: people get excited by doing new things. They see the challenges of the world. People are looking for meaning in their work.

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Ebrahim Patel: and they want to apply their skills broadly. So, generally speaking, there's no problem of enthusiasm or motivation

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Ebrahim Patel: to contribute to something new. But there are some very real constraints on the ground. For example, the system can only book transactions A, BC. It doesn't cater for transaction d.

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Ebrahim Patel: or you know, our approval process works in this way. And what you proposing there's actually no approval process for it.

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Ebrahim Patel: And I think the way I've worked in overcoming that resistance is to say, Okay, now that I understand why.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know, you may be hesitant, let's look at what the obstacles are. Is there another way to do this?

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Ebrahim Patel: Can we maybe do it another way, or I'm patient. We're happy to wait.

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Ebrahim Patel: You know, if it's going to take 6 months or 8 months to add what we need onto the process of the system.

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Ebrahim Patel: then let's wait and do it, and I think when people find you willing to work with their constraints.

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Ebrahim Patel: you respect the constraints that they're under.

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Ebrahim Patel: You also understand and respect why certain policies are in place. So you're not there to challenge the system or to try and break the policies. In that sense you respect why they're there. They're there for a reason, and you work with authenticity to say, Well, how do we add to that? How do we ensure that we respect the spirit of what's there but find an acceptable way through the protocols of the organization to go around. When you show that willingness as a project sponsor, then people react positively.

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Ebrahim Patel: I think where resistance gets worse

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Ebrahim Patel: is where a project sponsor or someone with an idea won't accept

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Ebrahim Patel: that. You know there are some natural challenges.

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Ebrahim Patel: There are obstacles that need to be overcome

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Ebrahim Patel: instead tries to bulldoze through them, or won't acknowledge them.

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Ebrahim Patel: or, you know, start to attack those obstacles, and then people feel that you know their position is not respected, their reality. If they cannot do what you want, and then they get defensive. So I think.

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Ebrahim Patel: if I can call it innovative empathy.

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Ebrahim Patel: It's a type of Eq. I think it's to understand and empathize with

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Ebrahim Patel: the resources available at the time. Understand? You live in a world of constraints, and actually proceed from an expectation of there being constraints

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Ebrahim Patel: and backing yourself and the team to actually overcome that

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Ebrahim Patel: put in place what's required. I think when people see that confidence that you're confident

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Ebrahim Patel: and you're patient and you're willing to work around.

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Ebrahim Patel: then they're happy to join with you. I think when you.

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Ebrahim Patel: when you show an unwillingness to accept that there's real constraints on their side.

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Ebrahim Patel: then people feel that you know you're pushing them into a corner, and they may not be able to deliver, or you know they may have to cross their mandate to help you, and then, naturally, people would be unwilling to do so.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Don't

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: bummer. He's so fascinating.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That was amazing like, and I think he like got to the end of that point.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Totally.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And so we can. Let's hit. Pause.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Okay, innovative empathy, Tracy and I, our minds were blown a little bit.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So we definitely want to unpack that. And the question that I have around. That is

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Being a change agent. A catalyst can take a lot of emotional energy, emotional labor for us to do all of the sensing and empathy that you were talking about.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: which means we also have limited resources or finite energy in terms of using that innovative empathy across an entire ecosystem as you were talking about.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and we also know that there's sort of a normal distribution of people's relationship to change right? So there's the catalyst at one, and then the laggards at the other. What's your advice for people about how to know how much energy to spend on whom? Like what the biggest leverage points are, because at some point, as catalysts we can try and convince the last naysayers standing, and they're never going to move, and we can like fall into burnout that way.

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Ebrahim Patel: I think the key thing is to is to sense the energy of the person that you are working with.

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Ebrahim Patel: so you can get a sense quite quickly.

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Ebrahim Patel: if someone you know is is keen to work with you, has a broad

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Ebrahim Patel: curiosity about the world, and, you know, generally wants to contribute, and at the tail end of that normal distribution you can also sense.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know, and it comes with experience that you know you. You genuinely not getting

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Ebrahim Patel: any joy here for lack of a better term. Or you know, again using a position of empathy.

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Ebrahim Patel: you you understand that you know where this person is the type of role type of infrastructure simply not suited for what you are proposing. And I think you also need to have a bit of maturity on yourself

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Ebrahim Patel: and say, sometimes, you know, maybe my choice of ecosystem component was wrong.

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Ebrahim Patel: Oftentimes, you know. We can also make the wrong choice as the project initiator.

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Ebrahim Patel: and our wrong choices sometimes will lead to people being strongly

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Ebrahim Patel: opposed to what we're doing. But it's because perhaps, you know, it's not the right person. What we're asking of them is not reasonable

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Ebrahim Patel: for what's at their disposal. And you also need to be mature and say, Okay, no, I think I've chosen the wrong

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Ebrahim Patel: piece of the chain. This is going to be too much

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Ebrahim Patel: of a stretch for this person to accomplish, and then to go back to the drawing board and recalibrate, I think maintaining good interpersonal relationships is the key

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Ebrahim Patel: to any ecosystem. Not everyone is going to say yes, at every point in time. You may even get people that say no, mostly.

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Ebrahim Patel: but they're still your colleagues. Remember, we're talking about a corporate setting.

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Ebrahim Patel: They're still your colleagues, and you know

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Ebrahim Patel: you still need to also understand the point that they come from, and at a later stage you may find that they become your greatest collaborator. So you. You don't want to destroy your network

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Ebrahim Patel: through short-sighted execution objectives. You've really got to put people first, st

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Ebrahim Patel: and you know no more so than when you're trying to do something new. You know, it's it's many corporates have this mantra. We put people first, st

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Ebrahim Patel: but really as an innovator, as a change agent that really has to be central.

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Ebrahim Patel: And often you find, like I said, when you actually dig deeper, you find that you know, this so-called research is simply because the person's not in a position

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Ebrahim Patel: to help you in the manner that you like, and

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Ebrahim Patel: it's then about being bold and saying, I'll take the challenge back. So maybe I chose

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Ebrahim Patel: component a I chose area A, it's not right for the ecosystem. I realized that. So I then back myself to go and find the right component, you know, as opposed to saying, you know the organization is resistant. No one wants to listen to me.

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Ebrahim Patel: I think you've got to learn to work with the pulse and the rhythm of the organization.

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Ebrahim Patel: Organizations are set up in certain ways as our governments as our societies. You know we're set up in a way to function.

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Ebrahim Patel: We set up to achieve certain goals, and we set up to enhance efficiency, flow of information, etcetera.

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Ebrahim Patel: And if you understand your organization and your ecosystem, the way it's set up, why, it's set up that way. Then you'll also understand why certain things are not possible.

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Ebrahim Patel: and you'll also understand the language of your organization

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Ebrahim Patel: and how you need to reposition so that you can work with the energy

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Ebrahim Patel: in the organization, you know. Maybe it's it's a sort of martial arts background. But you work with the energy.

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Ebrahim Patel: You know it's it's a circular flow. You absorb the energy and work with it.

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Ebrahim Patel: meeting forth with force. You know it never really results

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Ebrahim Patel: in anything tangible for either party. You've got to understand your organization, understand the context. Understand

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Ebrahim Patel: that the policies and the governance committees, etc. That an organization has. Why are they there?

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Ebrahim Patel: What are they guarding against? You know what's the execution culture

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Ebrahim Patel: of the organization and then find a way. And that's the responsibility. As an innovator. You've got to find a way

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Ebrahim Patel: to work your idea authentically into the culture of the organization

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Ebrahim Patel: rather than trying to change the culture of the organization. So I think what's worked for me

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Ebrahim Patel: is, maybe maybe I'm not a true change agent. Maybe I'm half a change agent, but

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Ebrahim Patel: you know it's it's not about change in a radical way.

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Ebrahim Patel: It's about bringing about change, using the currents at your disposal.

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Ebrahim Patel: It's, you know, if you want to travel, if you want to roll north. But you've got a tide

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Ebrahim Patel: that's going south. It's about going South and slowly redirecting north. So you harness the power of that tide. It always works.

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Ebrahim Patel: That's what I remember. Social capital.

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Ebrahim Patel: It's a very, very important

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Ebrahim Patel: asset, both in a corporate setting, and if you were a standalone entrepreneur, in fact, as a human being in a society, social capital is key.

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Ebrahim Patel: and you only have so much.

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Ebrahim Patel: and once it's destroyed, you actually can't regenerate it within an ecosystem.

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Ebrahim Patel: And so you need to also operate and execute in a way

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Ebrahim Patel: that enhances the social capital as well. So you can't be so focused

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Ebrahim Patel: only on the end goal of achieving this project or this product without also taking into stock. What are you doing for your other stock in trade?

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Ebrahim Patel: So you know. Yes, we need to execute.

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Ebrahim Patel: But can we do it in a way that also

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Ebrahim Patel: upsizes social capital in a way that also upsizes networking.

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Ebrahim Patel: Or are you going to go towards your goal?

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Ebrahim Patel: But you're going to destroy very, very valuable assets.

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Ebrahim Patel: You know, it's it's like, you're driving a car. And you can see the endline and such.

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Ebrahim Patel: And there's these spikes on the road. And so you say, Okay, you know I'm going to go over the spikes. All the tiles will be blown, but I'll have enough of the rooms to get to where I'm going so great you've gotten somewhere.

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Ebrahim Patel: But now you've got no more tires and then odds are you're not going anywhere else

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Ebrahim Patel: for a long time, so you've got to protect

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Ebrahim Patel: your asset in in the way you execute, and also, you know, work within the culture of the organization.

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Ebrahim Patel: and in that way you enhance the organization, and it'll be easier to also convince

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Ebrahim Patel: of the value that your endeavors bring. If people can see how it fits into the culture, how it enhances what's already there

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Ebrahim Patel: as opposed to something that you know comes across as totally alien.

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Ebrahim Patel: And you're now asking people to take perhaps undue reputational risk because you haven't positioned it correctly. So that's where this innovative empathy comes from. It's saying work with the current of the organization. And that's why I believe you must network widely.

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Ebrahim Patel: and you don't network. When you have a project.

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Ebrahim Patel: you network before that, you find out. You know who's sitting, where?

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Ebrahim Patel: Speak to people. What do you do? You know what's your objectives? There's nothing. Maybe there's nothing to do for months or years, but you maintain the network you speak. Then you get an idea

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Ebrahim Patel: of what's the culture of the ground? How do people think of things? And so when you do one day have something to talk about. It's positioned correctly

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Ebrahim Patel: comes from a place of trust. Remember, trust is very important.

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Ebrahim Patel: No one will trust you if they know you are putting them in perilous situations.

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Ebrahim Patel: It's the same as us, you know. We're never going to trust that taxi driver, for instance, that's always driving on the wrong side of the road. We're going to say, you know.

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Ebrahim Patel: Maybe he's got a fast car. But I I just can't go with this guy because it's always

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Ebrahim Patel: 2 degrees from death with him. You know he's always putting me in a bad situation, and so you've got to be very careful how you execute how you deal with people.

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Ebrahim Patel: You've got to temper your ambition to get it done quickly.

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Ebrahim Patel: We're doing it the right way with the right spirit.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's so good. And as I listen to you underneath, what you're talking about is like, you have the humility. There's like a sense of self-awareness and self management that I think I mean, I know from personal experience isn't always easy as a catalyst

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: because you're doing so much scanning to really understand the people who are in front of you and doing it with enough people. I love the way that you've been talking about like you can't meet force with force. Right? You have to like embed this into the organizational context.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: As I listen to that, the like inner baby catalyst. And he's like that sounds really slow, and it sounds like a lot of work, and it sounds like I'm not going to get to where I want to get to as quickly as possible. And I hear you say you're like, maybe your martial art experience helps give you the self-awareness, the self management to be able to be present with that. But I'm just wondering if you have any tips for catalysts who might not have sort of the humility, the patience, the self-awareness, the self management.

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Ebrahim Patel: The the only tip is to try and develop it. To be fair, I think you will definitely go so much further

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Ebrahim Patel: if you solve for people first.st So if you solve for your way of working, if you solve for your ability to connect.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know, I think you just build, you know, we talk about rails putting something on the correct rails and

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Ebrahim Patel: your own ability to execute. You've got to create the right rails for it, and those rails are created on the back of good interpersonal relationships. There's really no

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Ebrahim Patel: no other way around it. And I think one way, perhaps, to help manage that is to have a portfolio of ideas

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Ebrahim Patel: in different phases of execution. Now, if you've only got one idea.

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Ebrahim Patel: then you become desperate, you know, if you have to be be honest right if that if you

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Ebrahim Patel: one thing

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Ebrahim Patel: and it's that or nothing, you know. If I don't deliver this, then I've got nothing to show, and then I'm in trouble.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know. Then you become desperate. Then you get frustrated

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Ebrahim Patel: and you become perhaps unduly pushy.

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Ebrahim Patel: You aren't willing to let the process right up because you you're under undue pressure. So

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Ebrahim Patel: you need to also generate a basket of options for yourself in different stages of development.

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Ebrahim Patel: so that, you know. If if it's expected that, you know you, you need to do one new thing or 2 new things a year. Have 15 or 18

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Ebrahim Patel: in the pipeline, you know, and and slowly cultivate them. So you're never desperate for the one thing.

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Ebrahim Patel: and that allows you to do the right thing. It allows you to see the risks for what they are.

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Ebrahim Patel: It allows you to confidently cut something out if it's bad for the organization.

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Ebrahim Patel: or you know if it's bad for the client.

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Ebrahim Patel: you're not beholden only to execution, to the point where you become blind sometimes to the flaws, because

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Ebrahim Patel: let's be honest, not every idea is necessarily good.

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Ebrahim Patel: Sometimes the faults in the idea only become apparent at a later stage.

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Ebrahim Patel: and if that's the only thing that you have, it's going to be really, really difficult to let it go.

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Ebrahim Patel: But you know, if you've got a basket of of good options, and you need to let one or 2 go, it becomes easier.

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Ebrahim Patel: So I think the best way to manage that is to actually work on option generation.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know. Try try and get a basket of good ideas, and that that comes from, you know the techniques that you use to get ideas.

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Ebrahim Patel: And you know there's a system to that.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know, it's not necessarily just all blue sky. You can actively generate ideas

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Ebrahim Patel: initially, it just used to be brain race. But as I've gone through this through the years I've realized that there is a system

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Ebrahim Patel: for generating new ideas that you can actually put into place. So that would be my advice. Now I wouldn't say there's a hack that will allow you to override empathy. I'll say, rather

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Ebrahim Patel: create this situation

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Ebrahim Patel: so that you can always show that empathy. Don't. Don't put yourself in the corner where it's do or die.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know all 0.

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Ebrahim Patel: Don't be binary. I have a basket of options.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I love that so much. And I was just texting Tracy. You're blowing my mind because, like in innovation, we can talk about horizon, one horizon, 2, horizon 3 is sort of where my brain was going, and I love your recommendation. I mean, maybe they're all in horizon one. But like thinking really, intentionally about the change projects that you have, either internally or externally, as a source of energy and hope. And all of the things like, I just think it's a phenomenal idea. So thank you for that.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I feel calmer, just talking to you so to the question that you know Shannon has been asking you of how do you sustain this. I imagine you bring some of this to the people around you and how you show up.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So it's lovely. Thank you. I'm having the positive impacts as we wrap up today.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: we'd love to hear about your favorite catalyst, past or present, who inspires you, and why.

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Ebrahim Patel: So, Tracy, as with both of my answers, I'm going to give you an unconventional one here, you know. I don't have

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Ebrahim Patel: a particular catalyst a particular person.

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Ebrahim Patel: That's just the truth. However.

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Ebrahim Patel: what does strike me is when I see innovative things happening.

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Ebrahim Patel: and you know that inspires me. So, for instance.

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Ebrahim Patel: on a on a recent trip to Turkey, you know, I was at the Galata Tower, and the guide was saying.

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Ebrahim Patel: this is where perhaps the 1st UN unpowered or unnatural flight occurred when hammed Levi went across

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Ebrahim Patel: the Bosphorus from the Galata Tower.

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Ebrahim Patel: And that's amazing, you know, to be there at that place, and what is even more amazing is what happened afterwards. So the ruler of the time

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Ebrahim Patel: said, You know

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Ebrahim Patel: this is great, and he rewarded him with a large bag of gold coins, which is amazing, right? But then he says.

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Ebrahim Patel: this is a man who can achieve anything he puts his mind to.

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Ebrahim Patel: and such a man is not good to have around, and he promptly then exiled him.

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Ebrahim Patel: I think it was to Algeria. So you know, when when you come across situations that resonates with me because I can understand.

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Ebrahim Patel: You know, his desire to do something good to innovate, and sometimes it's not always well received. It also speaks to the duality of risk and reward in innovating. So it's these stories in these instances that inspire me. And there's myriads of them. I read widely, and I come across them

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Ebrahim Patel: quite a bit. So you know, I can't say it's X, or it's y.

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Ebrahim Patel: It's actually, you know, a thousand small examples of innovative thinking

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Ebrahim Patel: of going against the grain that that keeps me fit. So it's not one person.

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Ebrahim Patel: let's say that's a source of energy.

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Ebrahim Patel: I constantly take in small bits of energy. So I'm I'm on a

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Ebrahim Patel: more of a constant diet of inspiration as opposed to say, you know, yeah, as a figurehead.

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Ebrahim Patel: and that person inspires me.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: What do you do when you find those people in real life? So I hear you know you're reading about them. But you also mentioned earlier. You can spot folks like this.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Do you nurture them like? What does it mean if this is something that gives you energy?

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: What happens.

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Ebrahim Patel: You. You just connect and and you stay in touch.

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Ebrahim Patel: and you continue to share information. And sometimes it's got nothing to do with the project at hand.

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Ebrahim Patel: But what I found over the years, you know, especially being in an organization where the staff turnover is quite stable. So you know, it's a place

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Ebrahim Patel: where people tend to stay a long time.

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Ebrahim Patel: And what I found over the years is whenever there's something innovative or new, you tend to find the same people in the room.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know. It's like the same people pop up all the time. And so you sort of sense

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Ebrahim Patel: where the energy is coming from, and you're always talking, you're always connecting.

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Ebrahim Patel: And so when you find someone that has that energy, you know, you stay in touch, you bounce ideas, and you sort of get a natural chemistry, and as a result, you

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Ebrahim Patel: you do tend to form an informal network.

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Ebrahim Patel: and odds are that Joe will meet many times down the road, because just as I'm innovating and looking for new ways of doing things in that area of the organization where I am, they're doing the same thing wherever they are.

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Ebrahim Patel: And with ecosystem, thinking you you're gonna meet. And we do meet often.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know, at various places. So you often find it's the same people that bring that energy, and even after they leave or they move on, you know you still connect via Linkedin, or you send each other mails.

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Ebrahim Patel: or you even meet someone in a mall that you haven't seen for a year, and you end up speaking for an hour, because, you know, you've got that vibe

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Ebrahim Patel: going again so

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Ebrahim Patel: definitely, it's just when you meet them. You just feed off the energy bounce ideas. You know, it's a great space to think about things differently.

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Ebrahim Patel: because you know that you know, you don't 1st have to get past.

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Ebrahim Patel: Maybe the skepticism you can dive right into

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Ebrahim Patel: into the meat of it, and

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Ebrahim Patel: no, that's about it. And I think there's more

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Ebrahim Patel: people like that than perhaps we realize.

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Ebrahim Patel: Sometimes you'll be surprised, you know you wouldn't expect that someone has a catalyst.

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Ebrahim Patel: DNA. But when you actually get working with them.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know, sometimes they'll surprise you. Sometimes they're more radical than you are

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Ebrahim Patel: in in some of the ideas that you have. So no, I think the key is is to give people a chance to express what they're thinking.

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Ebrahim Patel: And you know, to to actually take time to know

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Ebrahim Patel: what a person's about. And you'll find most people want to do exciting things.

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Ebrahim Patel: you know, and most people want to make a difference, and most people want to be on the winning team.

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Ebrahim Patel: And so they want the organization to be the best. You know.

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Ebrahim Patel: this goes beyond getting paid or anything. It's just a human instinct. You know, we're competitive. That's what drives the video game industry.

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Ebrahim Patel: People want to be on the winning team, and you know, and if they feel they can contribute to it.

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Ebrahim Patel: they will. But you know it's it may not always look

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Ebrahim Patel: the way we expect that type of energy to look. And again, it's an investment of time

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Ebrahim Patel: to to truly understand who you're working with and what makes them tick.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Well, I hope, given what I'm hearing you do in the world, that this is the 1st

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: of many meetings of our catalyst minds, and that we will keep each other in mind in having those touch points in the future.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you so much for being here with us.

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Ebrahim Patel: I'd love that. That's amazing to our listening audience if you'd like.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Oh, absolutely we. I really, I truly hope it's many more times that we come together in the future

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: to our listening audience. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out our book, move fast, break ship, burnout, or go to our website at catalystconstellations.com.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And if you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did as you can tell, please take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And as we were just talking about, if you have other catalysts, maybe even hidden ones in your network, hit the share button and send a link their way. Thanks again.