Deborah Reuben, Founder & CEO of TomorrowZone - Leading Human-Centered Change with Deborah Reuben

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I'm Tracy Lovejoy.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I'm Shannon, Lucas. We are the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And this is our podcast move, fast, break ship burnout where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today we are incredibly delighted, honored to have time with Deborah Rubin, who is a huge catalyst, not shockingly a catalyst for transformative change in finance and technology as the founder and CEO of tomorrow's own. She empowers leaders to navigate the complexities of innovation with a uniquely human centered approach which we love.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): So as a starting point, Deborah, we would love to have you get a chance to introduce yourself. Can you share kind of your career journey with a few career highlights that you're proud of. That helps us see your catalytic nature.

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Deborah Reuben: Sure. So

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Deborah Reuben: I have spent the majority of my career in the commercial equipment, finance and leasing industry.

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Deborah Reuben: So it's about a trillion dollar industry that really makes business go. I find it fascinating.

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Deborah Reuben: And

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Deborah Reuben: And so I started

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Deborah Reuben: in this industry with Wells Fargo as an application designer and developer, and and had to learn the business end to end and create solutions to help them do things more efficiently. And I've always been a student

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Deborah Reuben: of the business.

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Deborah Reuben: and

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Deborah Reuben: I had the opportunity to be part of the Startup team for Tcf. Equipment finance, which was a regional

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Deborah Reuben: bank here in Minnesota, and

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Deborah Reuben: I. I joined that team right at the start, and I designed and built the apps that they ran on for the 1st 7 years of their existence. And

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Deborah Reuben: you know, it was really it was really fun, and really rewarding to design solutions that could stand the test of time and really

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Deborah Reuben: fit the way that people worked and fit the jobs that they were trying to get done. And so, you know, I had them up and running within the 1st year with apps that you know fit the business, but also the piece I'm proud of. There is that I was already within the 1st year looking for something to replace that that would enable long term scalability. But it didn't exist yet

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Deborah Reuben: in our industry, and that was an end to end integrated platform. And so

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Deborah Reuben: we were one of the 1st to implement an end to end integrated origination platform in the industry. We won an award for it as a team, and so pretty excited about that. And

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Deborah Reuben: that initiative was really I think, a springboard for how the rest of my career was shaped because

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Deborah Reuben: I had to lead a massively transformative change through

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Deborah Reuben: a lot of resistance, because back in that day people did not understand what it takes

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Deborah Reuben: to

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Deborah Reuben: implement a complex system, but also to get a lot of people across an entire organization

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Deborah Reuben: to adopt a big change. And I felt like I was on the firing line most of the time.

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Deborah Reuben: but you know, once I got through that and that was was implemented

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Deborah Reuben: as a catalyst. It was like, Okay, what's next now is in maintenance mode. That's not me. And so, you know, I had to look for the next adventure, and so

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Deborah Reuben: the the thing that I I loved about that journey, though, is those solutions really stood the test of time.

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Deborah Reuben: And I just ran into somebody recently at an industry event, and and we had worked together back in the day, and he had used some of the apps that I created, and he said, You know

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Deborah Reuben: I still haven't run into an app that

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Deborah Reuben: works

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Deborah Reuben: as well as what you designed for the salespeople, because I designed it for the salesperson, not the sales managers.

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Deborah Reuben: So it's totally different experience. And so

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Deborah Reuben: I I ended up leaving and

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Deborah Reuben: and I joined a software company for a time as a product manager. I saw the industry from an incredibly different lens.

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Deborah Reuben: You know. Got to drive a lot of change there and then. In 2,013, I started my consulting firm and focused on

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Deborah Reuben: same type of thing, transformative change and helping companies with digital transformation and technology roadmaps. But you know

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Deborah Reuben: it, it's always kind of masqueraded as technology. But really, what we do is we help bring the humans along for the change cause you can have the sexiest, most awesome technology if you don't get the human side right, you're not gonna get results. You're never gonna get the benefits that you intended. And so

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Deborah Reuben: so back in in 2013 I launched my company, which is now called Tomorrow zone.

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Deborah Reuben: and along the way ended up getting to do some really interesting things that catalyzed change at an industry level. One of one example is.

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Deborah Reuben: I rewrote the certified leasing and finance professionals, handbook

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Deborah Reuben: collaborating with 40 different subject matter experts from across the industry

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Deborah Reuben: to rewrite the handbook that's used by people who are studying to take the 8 h exam to earn their professional designation.

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Deborah Reuben: So as a technology. Nerd, you know, being a student of the business, has really gone a long way to help me to understand how to bring people along when it comes to transformative change.

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Deborah Reuben: You know. So that's

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Deborah Reuben: that was a big highlight. And then

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Deborah Reuben: when it comes to leading the industry innovation conversation. This is something that I've been involved in.

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Deborah Reuben: Quite a bit.

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Deborah Reuben: you know. I led.

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Deborah Reuben: I led an industry future council in 2,017 for the equipment Leasing and Finance Foundation, and we had a group of Ceos from across the industry

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Deborah Reuben: that came together to look at. You know what's going on with technology and trends, and what's the future of our industry? And then they put together a big report, and I just went back and reviewed that report

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Deborah Reuben: a couple of weeks ago, and it blew my mind because a lot of the things that we're talking about now, and we're excited about now as an industry I introduced in 2017. It's in writing all throughout that report. I got these executives to not only

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Deborah Reuben: take a look at what's going on with exponentially advancing technologies that actually had them interact with. You know, we brought in Google cardboard, had them interact with VR, and then, you know, use these experiences to help imagine. What could the future look like for our industry

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Deborah Reuben: in 2024? So it was really fun to go back and look at the imagined futures that we did together 7 years ago, and see where are we now? And and some of the things that they were were thinking are are pretty spot on and it's easy to. It's interesting to see what we were thinking. But then, where we ended up

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Deborah Reuben: today, and I've continued to lead that industry, level, innovation, experience, and conversation ever since. The latest

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Deborah Reuben: initiative is the the Industry Innovation Council for the largest trade association, equipment, leasing and Finance Association. And so

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Deborah Reuben: with that one, you know, I'm pretty proud of what we've accomplished there. Back in 2,018 the the association CEO reached out and said, Hey.

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Deborah Reuben: our board has decided that we need some sort of a working group to help senior and sea level leaders understand what's going on with technology and innovation. And specifically, what does it mean for industry? How should our leaders be thinking about this? And so we don't know what it is what it looks like. All we know is, we want you to lead it.

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Deborah Reuben: And of course, I'm like, Yeah, let's do it. That sounds like fun. So so I recruited 18 senior and sea level leaders that represented a cross section of the industry ecosystem to come together on a monthly basis for trend, scanning sessions, looking at what's going on in the environment, what do we need to be paying attention to? And what does it mean

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Deborah Reuben: for our industry. And it it was for 6 years we've been driving the content and the topics that the Association is is focusing on for their events, their research their

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Deborah Reuben: you know, their various publications. And we also started doing virtual innovation roundtables 3 years ago. So we just did our 15th one

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Deborah Reuben: last week and you know, people come together and they share, and they find out what's on the mind of industry peers

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Deborah Reuben: when it comes to these hot topics. And so

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Deborah Reuben: those are kind of things that I've been involved in, like I was kind of shaking up, causing trouble.

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Deborah Reuben: helping expand. You know, the thinking of of what's possible for the future. And what are the decisions we need to make and the actions we need to take now to shape that future. And that's that's kind of in the theme. Throughout my whole career.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I just love these stories I have. I've not ever gotten to hear these stories, so it's such a treat to to get to know you in this way, and it's very much hinted at. I'd love to understand how you relate to the concept of catalyst.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And one of the things I'm hearing in your stories is you really did change from App Developer

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): into something. I won't even name it because I'm excited for you to app it, name it like something much broader. And so I I'd love to hear as you describe your concept of catalyst. How is it your inner catalyst that has really led you to shift

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): what you're doing in the world?

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Deborah Reuben: I love this question. So

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Deborah Reuben: I was thinking about this. I revisited your book. I haven't made it through the whole thing yet, cause. I actually have been kind of eating it in pieces.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, but.

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Deborah Reuben: There was a quote that really resonated

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Deborah Reuben: catalyst constantly take in information, see lots of possibility and a better future state, and have a drive to transform toward that future

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Deborah Reuben: and that really resonated. Because that is my process.

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Deborah Reuben: And when I look back and connect the dots going backward, that is the the through line that I see across my entire career.

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Deborah Reuben: And

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Deborah Reuben: I've always been somebody who will. I'll take in a lot of information really fast, and I'll see the patterns, and I'll see multiple future possibilities. I'm never the person who's like. It's either this or that like, if I can't see at least 5 possibilities, I've failed.

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Deborah Reuben: And so

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Deborah Reuben: I I see those things really, really fast, and

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Deborah Reuben: I'm usually driven to do something about it to shape the future that I can see. And so that's kind of been the

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Deborah Reuben: the whole core of what tomorrow zone is all about tomorrow zone is, is actually it started as a framework that I was presenting in a keynote on the future of X.

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Deborah Reuben: And you know it would be like the shock and awe, presentation, and getting people inspired to make time to think about future possibilities.

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Deborah Reuben: to change the actions that you take and the decisions that you make today. And the process is, you know.

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Deborah Reuben: paying attention to what's going on when it comes to the pace of change. And and where do you see markers of that that connect to your life? And then, looking at trends across multiple categories and asking, What do these mean? What if they continue? What would be the degree of impact to me or my customers, my career

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Deborah Reuben: or my industry? But then, also looking at, you know what's going on across multiple different types of of technology and what's possible at the intersections of those.

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Deborah Reuben: Because that's where we can see amazing new possibilities for business models or operating models within a company, or even, in my case, a complete new business reinvention. You know. And so

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Deborah Reuben: all of that coming together helps you to see possibilities for the future so that you can impact

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Deborah Reuben: the way that you're acting today to make sure that you're doing the things that will lead to that future. And

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Deborah Reuben: it became not just a framework to share, but it became actually the brand of my company tomorrow zone. So that thinking is woven into

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Deborah Reuben: everything that we do, whether we're helping a customer to understand what their strategic technology roadmap needs to look look like and how to bring the people along

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Deborah Reuben: or we're looking at. How do we transform the software delivery experience for a technology company? It's the same thing, diverge, converge, diverge, converge

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Deborah Reuben: over and over and over again. And it

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Deborah Reuben: can seem really really messy to

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Deborah Reuben: other people. Yeah, totally. But we always end up with clarity when we get to that converge point.

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Deborah Reuben: and that's really rewarding.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It sounds like that's a super power of yours, honestly, as a as a catalyst executive is like the scanning and helping people get to the clarity about.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and a little bit. It sounds like the invitation to to co-create some of that future clarity together. I'm wondering what some of your challenges have been as a catalyst executive.

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Deborah Reuben: There are many. And and back to what you were saying. Co-create is a part of how we do this.

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Deborah Reuben: When we facilitate this experience. It's a visual co-creation of the big picture.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Deborah Reuben: Your hands, on which is an.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Apparently hard.

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Deborah Reuben: Seeing it. You're saying it. You're interacting with it. It's a totally different experience.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Deborah Reuben: You know the. And so I mean some of the challenges.

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Deborah Reuben: I think

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Deborah Reuben: I think the biggest one, and I'm struggling with this right now, I mean when you're trying to.

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Deborah Reuben: when you have a vision and a passion to affect

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Deborah Reuben: an industry, it's it can be lonely, especially when I mean in finance. The voice of status quo is very loud and strong.

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Deborah Reuben: and it's hard to paint a picture of the future that I see in a way that other people can really connect to it.

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Deborah Reuben: Cause I can see it so clear, and I'm usually 7 to 10 years ahead.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hmm.

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Deborah Reuben: And it's been so

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Deborah Reuben: bringing people along and and helping them to see a compelling vision that not

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Deborah Reuben: so that they're afraid of the future. I really have a passion to make the future less scary. I want to create a future that's bigger than the past, so that it it compels us to be attracted to and run toward that future together. And and this is

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Deborah Reuben: to me one of the the bigger challenges is something I'm continually working at. You know. How. How can I share this in a way that

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Deborah Reuben: other people can relate to.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I mean. Thank you for saying that out loud, because, you know, if we had stopped the interview a couple of minutes ago, we would have been like, yeah. And in 2,014, was it? What year did you do that visioning where you were.

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Deborah Reuben: Oh!

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: 17.

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Deborah Reuben: 2017.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, you know, you're like, and wave the magic wand. We got clarity. And here's where we are, and we didn't nail it all. But there was clarity. So the fact that, like this continues to be a challenge because it is such a real challenge for so many.

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Deborah Reuben: Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It feels clear we can feel it in our body.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And yet so we'd love for you to unpack a little bit like, how have you? What have you learned over the years.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: but also double clicking on like when we talk about catalyst? We, you know, we talk about them like an organizational context. But we don't often double click on the fact that there are some industries that literally are more challenging from a regulatory perspective, from a business model, the impact that you know you're talking about like how the work that you're doing underpins the economy in a lot of ways. So there's going to be a lot of risk aversion there. So talk about how you get help, get help, bring people along in that specific environment.

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Deborah Reuben: So we just talked about this in our Round table last week with a a group of leaders within the industry

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Deborah Reuben: we were talking about? How do you balance?

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Deborah Reuben: The imperative to innovate with the responsibility of day to day.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Deborah Reuben: And that's a huge.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Matt.

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Deborah Reuben: Whether you're on the business side or the tech side, or you're driving innovation in between. You're bumping up against this challenge continually. And

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Deborah Reuben: one of the things that that I I brought up for conversation was, you know, we're getting all excited about innovation and getting people to think outside of the box. But the thing that we have to recognize is

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Deborah Reuben: as an industry. We do have a box.

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Deborah Reuben: It's legal, and it's regulatory whether you like it or not. And so

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Deborah Reuben: we need to recognize that. And then we need to ask different questions. How might we still innovate despite these constraints?

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Deborah Reuben: And it's just a different level and of innovation. It's a different frame

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Deborah Reuben: for innovation. It's a different way to question. But we can't lose sight of that.

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Deborah Reuben: because I think if we don't

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Deborah Reuben: recognize that.

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Deborah Reuben: I think you can. You can frustrate a lot of people who have a lot of really great intentions, and they want to do great things.

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Deborah Reuben: but their vision loses impact. It loses power when it when it has impact with reality.

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Deborah Reuben: You know, we we want to make awesome happen. We're thinking big. But we actually have to start small and learn forward fast. And in our industry the traditional model is a big Bang change because of some command and control edict

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Deborah Reuben: without bringing the people along. And so

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Deborah Reuben: I think that you know, in in our industry.

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Deborah Reuben: when you have a lot of constraints

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Deborah Reuben: to help bring the people along. The thing that I have found to really create a shared understanding of the big picture of where we are now

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Deborah Reuben: and where we're going

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Deborah Reuben: is to do it together.

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Deborah Reuben: I have found that people are are less resistant to ideas, that they were part of creating, and so from the beginning I bring them along for that journey I don't believe. Buy in is something that you bolt on to the end of your vision creation process.

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Deborah Reuben: It's something that you build along the way by including the right people in the conversation, to 1st of all define what is the problem that would be valuable for us to solve. And do we understand the environment in which that problem exists, and why it's important to solve it? And if we can get agreement and alignment. There.

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Deborah Reuben: now we can actually move forward and we work through getting the ick out, recognizing the successes and challenges of the past and and the you know, challenges of today. And once we can get through that now, we can free up people to actually start thinking about new possible futures. I see it happen every time

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Deborah Reuben: it naturally shifts. You know, in the in our model we have a

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Deborah Reuben: We have a methodology that that we've created called the catalyst sprint.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Nice.

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Deborah Reuben: Before. I haven't met you guys. So I've been using that word

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Deborah Reuben: and and it just catalyzes new thinking about the current state and future possibilities, so that when we understand it together, we can create the roadmap to get there

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Deborah Reuben: that we all agree on, and

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Deborah Reuben: by the 9th session in our work session series. We always see a tipping point every time where we can shift people to. Now, thinking about the future with an open mind, because we've helped them get through dealing with the past and the present.

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Deborah Reuben: It it just really changes things. And so that's that's the biggest thing that I have found that really helps that, you know.

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Deborah Reuben: I I think of it as kind of listening visually.

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Deborah Reuben: You know, we hear about deep listening all the time. But what if we listen so deeply that we're actually creating a shared understanding and big picture together that we can all see

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Deborah Reuben: now? We don't have people having different images in their head of what we're talking about.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: couple couple of questions. First, st I love the recognition because I think catalyst can

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: like we may develop a domain of expertise. And then, as we're catalysts, we might start to catalyze across different domains. And I think one of the challenges I've had this for sure is we can be naive.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: If we don't understand that box that you're talking about, right? So like I would often say, Well, no one's life is on the line here. But then I was innovating with the CIO of ge aviation, and he's like lives are actually on the line here right.

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Deborah Reuben: Yeah, yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Just being like cognizant of what you're doing. I'm wondering, how do you? Another 2 part question here.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: How do you get people to to lean into the process to begin with, because if it sometimes in that environment, if it sniffs, or you know, sense of innovation, people are like, we can't go there and then how do you move through the limitations or constraints, or the box that they sit in in that process to create the container, to help them think constructively.

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Deborah Reuben: Well, I mean a lot of that comes down to facilitation, and and I believe that if you

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Deborah Reuben: want to

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Deborah Reuben: have a great

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Deborah Reuben: conversation and and do problem solving

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Deborah Reuben: problem framing and problem solving together.

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Deborah Reuben: You have to create the space

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Deborah Reuben: And

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Deborah Reuben: the 1st thing is actually creating space, and it seems really obvious.

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Deborah Reuben: but we're not doing it.

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Deborah Reuben: So here's an example. So I'm working with a tech company right now. And

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Deborah Reuben: we just as a part of our our work. We needed to do a rapid set of retrospectives on a number of projects, and

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Deborah Reuben: and we had to design these conversations in a way that we could get a very rich set of data. We could create a safe space for people to share things that could be, you know, Touchy, if it wasn't, you know, an awesome project. And

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Deborah Reuben: and also.

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Deborah Reuben: you know, Honor, the fact that we were working in a box because these were all billable people, and we had to honor that time and use it really wisely, and so.

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Deborah Reuben: designing the conversation.

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Deborah Reuben: To achieve

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Deborah Reuben: those objectives together was a big part of it, and then creating the space

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Deborah Reuben: so that people could arrive and actually focus on what we were doing.

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Deborah Reuben: But it's not just about the event it's about before, during and after. What are we doing before, to prepare the people to come in and participate fully? And so we really worked with executive sponsor and the project leader to start messaging and working with these people so that they were ready, and they understood why they were handpicked

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Deborah Reuben: and and selected as important contributors to this work and what it means for the company. You know a lot of times people are pulled into things and they're like, why am I here?

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Deborah Reuben: And even if you tell them, you still have to remind them. And so, you know, continuing to orient people back to the why of what we're doing. The other thing that we we did.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And.

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Deborah Reuben: Really

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Deborah Reuben: Every time we got together we showed a very quick, big picture vision, almost like a mall map

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Deborah Reuben: of what we're trying to achieve. Here's where you are

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Deborah Reuben: on the way to where we're going. And so we always have orientation, because.

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Deborah Reuben: you know, even if it's a quick

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Deborah Reuben: sprint that we're doing? People still need to see like, are we making progress? Where are we? How much do we have left, you know, and then create the space for them to come in and focus. We heard from you know from our client that people were coming to them after the sessions, and saying that was the best retrospective I've ever participated in. It was almost cathartic. I feel like I was actually heard, and that my ideas are valued and that we're gonna do something about it.

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Deborah Reuben: And I actually got to focus.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Deborah Reuben: You can't rock your world in between a stack of half hour meetings.

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Deborah Reuben: So you have to actually make space for it. So so that's

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Deborah Reuben: that's just one of the things that that we have found. That's been really

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Deborah Reuben: impactful and effective.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): The home.

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Deborah Reuben: You know, with those transformative changes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I love this. I do want to hand it over, Tracy, but just like a final like sort of synthesis for me there, cause I, I wanna like the connecting the why like, why are we here? But I also hear you connecting like, why they're there. And the thing that we talk about in our class, which is the breadcrumbing which is like you. Everyone else would just see the events that you're doing and be like. That's the work.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: but it's really like an iceberg, because what I hear you saying is, there's all of the work underneath before, during after, and and so on. That's making that container as successful and powerful as it is. So thank you for that. Yeah.

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Deborah Reuben: Yeah, there's a lot under the surface.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): how do you? What does it mean to create space for people? So that they can

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): build ideas and vision

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): really concretely, like.

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Deborah Reuben: Oh, yeah, so for me, it's as simple as let's let's schedule

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Deborah Reuben: time.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Okay.

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Deborah Reuben: Let's schedule a big enough block of time that we can actually sink our mental teeth into this.

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Deborah Reuben: So that we can actually complete a thought.

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Deborah Reuben: And not have to take it offline or do a follow up. And so in this case we were able to do this in 2 h sessions. But the other thing that

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Deborah Reuben: is a a trick of mine that I found that works really well is

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Deborah Reuben: I want fresh brains.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Deborah Reuben: I want. I want the team right away in the morning.

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Deborah Reuben: They are consumed by the fires of the day.

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Deborah Reuben: because the context, switching into this way of thinking. If you're coming from fighting fires

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Deborah Reuben: is just too taxing. Yeah. And so that's that's another element of of creating that that space, you know, in addition to how you facilitate, how you have the conversations, the language that you use. You know there's all sorts of tools and tricks that you're probably

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Deborah Reuben: using yourselves.

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Deborah Reuben: but you know just the basics.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Deborah Reuben: Time, and what time of the day.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah, no, I love those. And in in class, we when we talk to folks about visioning, we literally say.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): like, Seek out spaciousness, that creativity, that a vision is an imagined future. And to imagine you need to be in a headspace of creativity, we don't often give them direction on how to create spaciousness or what that means. Like, we'll say, you know, being outside.

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Deborah Reuben: You know.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Being in water like those are good. But you're giving really concrete things that can also happen

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): at work.

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Deborah Reuben: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I think, is really really hard for people to be able to access spaciousness, and so.

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Deborah Reuben: Oh, yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): The start of the day.

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Deborah Reuben: Those are.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Fresh brains. So I love this very.

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Deborah Reuben: There's 1 more, though, that comes to mind because you use the word spaciousness and and that has to do with the actual environment.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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Deborah Reuben: One of the things that I learned when I was doing a lot of consulting in person is that our ideas would expand to the limits of the actual physical whiteboard.

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Deborah Reuben: The bigger the whiteboard.

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Deborah Reuben: the further we can go.

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Deborah Reuben: It seems silly, but it happened every time.

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Deborah Reuben: and so I would seek out the rooms with the largest whiteboard ever. Well, now, in a virtual environment since 2020, we're doing the same thing digitally in infinite murals.

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Deborah Reuben: and nobody has to write, you know. Do not erase.

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Deborah Reuben: We keep the big picture in front of us, and we can evolve it as we go. And so when you, when it comes to spaciousness. That's another way that we're actually creating spaciousness for our ideas, because our ideas have a home.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Right as opposed to Powerpoint or Google. Doc.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Well, it is.

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Deborah Reuben: Interactive. It evolves.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Because we had talked in the catalyst Leadership trust about having, you know, a couple of years ago. But I think it's still really present, like at the beginning, everyone was like, how do we do this stuff that we were doing live when we create in a creative environment? All this stuff, and, Deborah, we had talked so much about tapping you to have some of.

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Deborah Reuben: Oh, yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And so I am actually curious, like, maybe we come back for a follow up. Podcast. That's just on that.

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Deborah Reuben: Yeah, we could. That's been a major focus for tomorrow.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Totally.

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Deborah Reuben: Whole capability around it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I think our all of our audience would love to have like a bunch of concrete ways that you've been able to super effectively do that. So yeah, to be continued.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah. Great idea.

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Deborah Reuben: Sure. Yeah, yeah, I mean, those are things that I look at. And it's almost like, you know, talking to a fish and going, hey, how's the water? Because, like, this is just what we do. And so I'm like, oh, that's interesting to you.

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Deborah Reuben: Cool.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. What you what you were breathing through will be very interesting for other people totally.

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Deborah Reuben: Yeah, yeah, thank you for that.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I on Shannon, just brought in the catalyst Leadership trust. So for those listening, we have an amazing group of executives that we convene. That is literally our favorite time each month to come, together with the group that Deborah is a member of. And you started by talking about a key challenge for you as a catalyst executive is that loneliness? And so would love to have us bridge as we talk about challenges to you know what role is something like the Clt. The catalyst leadership trust for you as a catalyst.

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Deborah Reuben: List exists.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Executives.

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Deborah Reuben: Yeah. So in my experience, being somebody driving change, especially in this environment.

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Deborah Reuben: has always been a really lonely place.

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Deborah Reuben: And when I worked for

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Deborah Reuben: in equipment, leasing and finance company.

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Deborah Reuben: I actually had to go outside in my company to find

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Deborah Reuben: understood me.

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Deborah Reuben: cause I was so different

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Deborah Reuben: from the rest of the company and leading these kinds of changes.

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Deborah Reuben: and

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Deborah Reuben: I think that

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Deborah Reuben: the big thing is as a catalyst. You have to find your people. You have to find people that

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Deborah Reuben: can be kind of a network of support for you, even if it means going outside of your company going outside of your industry. And that's what I did in 2020.

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Deborah Reuben: I I found innovators all over the world and and connected with them to help us. You know we experimented for a whole year with these interactive types of events.

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Deborah Reuben: You know it just is. And so the Catalyst Trust has has been just inspirational. And it's almost like a it's a breath of fresh air, really, because it's like, Oh, my gosh.

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Deborah Reuben: these are my people, and this is a place where I don't have to worry about

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Deborah Reuben: whether people understand me or sometimes I've even heard from executives that I'm scary because of how I think about the future. But in that, and that's not my intent. I want to make the future less scary cause. It's so awesome. You know the way I see it in my mind. But you know you don't always run into people who understand that. But in this group

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Deborah Reuben: I do, and they inspire me. And so I think that it's it's just it's fuel.

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Deborah Reuben: It's just fuel for my brain.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And for my body I'd say

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): right. I come out of whether it's a trust meeting or the All Trust Assembly, and I just feel like I'm buzzing.

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Deborah Reuben: Yes, yes, that definitely does happen. You're like, just inspired. I call it brain on fire. That's what happens after.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Right.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Totally.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And I'm an introvert, and so meetings like that can often exhaust me. But when I I've learned that part of what's hard for me is when I have to slow down. How fast I think, or I'm not allowed to make the random connections.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): and so to be in a group where I'm I can just move at speed, and honestly, the group often moves a little faster even than me, which is so like that's so unusual.

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Deborah Reuben: Actually, I love the speed of it.

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Deborah Reuben: And I love the you know, we talked earlier about diverge and taking in a lot of information.

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Deborah Reuben: I actually love it like we've got people speaking, and there's presenting. And the chat is going wild. And there's like new insights just coming from all sides. It's really, really exciting.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I couldn't agree more.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: We. We love it too, and just the like. The diversity of you know I love one of the guiding principles of like, you know, like hearted, but different minded, like the the diversity of the perspectives, while also having that shared catalyst experience. Right? Because, you know, for for me, I haven't got to say this to you, Deborah, but it's like I was so grateful to to create this, because, especially when I was in the corporate world, I craved this like you were talking about.

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Deborah Reuben: Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Where are the people who don't think I'm crazy? Where are the people who are? Gonna push me? Not just tell me that I'm that. I'm on the right path, but push me to think bigger and dream harder, and all of the things. And it's like, Oh, so thank you. We're so grateful to have you there. Final fun question. We'd love to hear, maybe one or 2, if you have them, of your favorite famous catalyst, past or present, and why? Who inspires you?

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Deborah Reuben: So.

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Deborah Reuben: I'm I'm glad that you gave me this question ahead of time. Cause it was really fun to think about, and my gut response

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Deborah Reuben: was

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Deborah Reuben: to think about 2 athletes.

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Deborah Reuben: So I know we're talking about being a catalyst in the business world. But

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Deborah Reuben: my 1st thought went to Roger Bannister.

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Deborah Reuben: who was the 1st human to break the 4 min mile

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Deborah Reuben: back in 1,954. So it used to be something that was thought impossible for humans to achieve.

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Deborah Reuben: But once he broke the barrier

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Deborah Reuben: within a couple of months another person and then another another. And now it's like, you know, it's way. Be low 4 min mile all the time.

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Deborah Reuben: But you know he helped take the limits off, and I think that it's a really great inspiration

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Deborah Reuben: to take the limits off. But then, when you do, when you bust through those those barriers, it can inspire others to do the same.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You're literally making my body tingle and my ears water, I mean my my eyes, not my ears.

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Deborah Reuben: And then the other is is like that. So so I was a nationally competitive gymnast in my younger days, and and so I was really inspired by the Olympics over the past few weeks, and Simone Biles is a Us. Elite gymnast.

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Deborah Reuben: She rocked the Olympics, but she's like the Roger Bannister

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Deborah Reuben: of us gymnastics.

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Deborah Reuben: and and she is 1st of all, she's competing at an age that we thought impossible.

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Deborah Reuben: We actually thought that that was impossible for a human to do that.

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Deborah Reuben: And not only is she doing that, but she's doing it at a level that is unsurpassed. The difficulty of the move she is executing.

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Deborah Reuben: We used to joke about the stuff that she's doing as if it were impossible back when I was training.

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Deborah Reuben: And so, you know, she is continually changing the face of the game.

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Deborah Reuben: and she's stretching the limits of what's possible by example. And and as she's doing that, you're starting to see the level of others come up. And so it's inspiring a whole sport. But she's also a catalyst for self care

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Deborah Reuben: for athletes with what happened in 2020 and her

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Deborah Reuben: you know, stepping out, and she got a lot of Flack for that. But I understand that I've been through what what she went through. Actually, I experienced that, and

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Deborah Reuben: in a sport where you are encouraged to continually deny and ignore your own physical needs.

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Deborah Reuben: I thought it was just groundbreaking

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Deborah Reuben: for her to do that and to do that on a world stage.

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Deborah Reuben: and I think that that has also changed the conversation in a major way. And so

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Deborah Reuben: you know, I think that these 2 catalysts, you know, they're doing it in the athletic world, but I think they're really inspiring, no matter what realm

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Deborah Reuben: you're trying to impact yourself because it's all about.

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Deborah Reuben: You know, continuing to take the limits off

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Deborah Reuben: for yourself.

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Deborah Reuben: and it paves the way for others to do it too.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you for sharing.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and it's so great she's not just inspiring. She's turning around and helping those who are coming. I don't even want to say behind her, but, like with her on the journey.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And I just love your framing of like removing the limits. It I have, you know, like.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I just think it's beautiful. So thank you, and like being in the box and removing the limits all at the same time, right like.

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Deborah Reuben: Oh, yeah, the box that those gymnasts are competing in is very extreme.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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Deborah Reuben: Very difficult. The rules are crazy, and they do it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, this has been an amazing conversation, Deborah. Thank you so much for sharing this part of you. It's been really fun.

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Deborah Reuben: Well, thank you for the opportunity. It's been wonderful. And and I just really appreciate the opportunity to participate with the Catalyst Trust.

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Deborah Reuben: It has just been an inspiring

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Deborah Reuben: blessing

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Deborah Reuben: for the past couple of years.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): We love having you.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yep

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: to our listening audience. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world, be sure to check out our book, move fast, break, shit, burn out, or go to our website at catalyst constellations.com.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And if you enjoyed this episode as much as Shannon and I did, and I'm sure you did. Please take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher wherever it is. You listen to your podcasts and inevitably, you have other podcasts in your life. So we'd appreciate.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Catalysts in your life.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): What did I say?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Podcasts.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Other catalysts in your life that is so silly. Other catalysts in your life. Please hit the share button and send a link their way, and, Shannon, thank you for having my back.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You're you're good. I'm still drying up my ears.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): That's right.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you.