Bryon Kroger, Founder and CEO of Rise8: Rebel or Revolutionary?

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I'm Tracy Lovejoy, the co-CEO of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world. And this is our podcast move, fast, break ship burnout, where we speak with catalyst executives about successfully leading transformation in large organizations. Today, I am really honored to have time with Brian Kroger. Welcome, Brian!

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bkroger: Thank you for having me.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Brian's the founder and CEO of rise 8 spearheading initiatives to deliver software solutions 25 times faster than traditional methods, which is kind of insane look forward to hearing about that. As a former Us. Air Force targete, with firsthand experience of the devastating impact, inadequate software has had on mission success.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Brian co-founded Kessel Run, the Dod's 1st software factory, where he served as coo leading acquisitions, development operations for the Enterprise scale software lab that defined Dod devops, which is pretty cool. What a cool claim to fame!

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: You pioneered the 1st continuous authority to operate. Cato, frustrated with the lack of industry, partners capable of leading defense, digital transformation. Here you come with Rise 8 to fill the gap where you are leading today. So today you are, as far as I know the leading expert on Cato and the bureaucracy hacking necessary to continuously deliver valuable software that users love. Thank you. Thank you for joining me today, Brian.

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bkroger: I'm excited to be here.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So that is, you know, kind of a top level bio, where we love to start in our discussions is giving you the chance to talk about your career highlights when you think of yourself as a catalyst and a change maker, so I'd love you to kind of zoom us back and help us look at that side of your career.

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bkroger: Yeah. So you mentioned high level that I experienced bad software. So 10 years active duty. The 1st 7 years I was an intelligence officer doing mostly targeting operations. Highly consequential, right? Like life and death scenarios. And it's not like what you see on the movies at all. The military does not have this amazing software with holograms shooting onto walls and AI and everything else. We're a lot of times. Luckily, if we could get our email to work.

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bkroger: So organization that's not great at enterprise email, you can imagine doesn't have great software to conduct targeting operations around the world. Now, at the same time, we have these amazing pieces of hardware.

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bkroger: you know, we can hit a fly with a missile halfway around the world.

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bkroger: But when you go back into the operating centers where people are doing work on computers, things don't look anything like that. And so I saw some really egregious incidents. But multiple times. I saw situations where I felt like software literally caused missions to fail and people to die.

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bkroger: And that was the moment, you know, after experiencing that over and over again, I decided to hang up my intelligence badge and move over to acquisitions where they procure software. But instead of procuring software, we stood up this organization, Kessel Run to have the government start building software to solve their own problems. And that was a big turning point for me, a catalyst event for me, where we really

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bkroger: changed the way that the the department was doing business, the largest bureaucracy on the planet, literally by every metric. And we we did a 1 80 change and and create some really great outcomes.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And was it your Brainchild to create this new operation? Or were you like, okay, guys, I'm here to help you find better software. And they were like, Hmm, Brian.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Maybe there's a better way, like, you know. Bring me into that moment.

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bkroger: Yeah. So I got pretty lucky. There's a bunch of serendipity. While I was deployed. I read Gene Kim's book. I'm an avid reader, but I read the Phoenix project

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bkroger: and that kind of set the tone for me of how we needed to approach this problem, and so I knew we needed to insource the change. I had no idea how to go about doing. I don't have a software background. I was a targete intelligence officer, and there was an organization called Defense Innovation Unit. And I heard they had these really great contracts. Contracting is really hard in the Federal Government.

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bkroger: And so I just reached out to them because I was like.

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bkroger: tell me how to do contracting better. You guys have this amazing other transaction authority. And they're like you need to talk to Enrique, and so I got linked up with this guy who's

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bkroger: got sent out to Silicon Valley to scout talent, and he found this organization called pivotal labs that helped organizations transform the way they build and deliver software.

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bkroger: And I met amazing people

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bkroger: like Jason Fraser, who was on your show. He was one of my mentors. He I actually paired with him quite a bit, and learned one to one like

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bkroger: doing things alongside Jason as an apprentice and several other amazing people that work for that organization. And so

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bkroger: yeah, I wish I could say that I had the grand strategy. And it all played out the way that I wanted to. But it was a lot of luck along the way of just meeting really amazing humans

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bkroger: and taking the journey.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I get so curious I'm going to ask a question, and then I'll tell you where my curiosity is, but I won't lead the witness. So I'd love to understand for you how you think about this concept of catalyst. And

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: if you think you are a catalyst, or were you before the Kessel run. Opportunity emerged.

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bkroger: Yes, I I think I've always had it

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bkroger: And the way that I think about it.

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bkroger: and maybe one thing I'll add right. So going beyond what's what's presented in the book and in your work?

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bkroger: One way that I like to think of this. I don't know if you've ever heard the pioneer settler, town planner

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bkroger: framework.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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bkroger: Yeah, yeah, so.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I want to hear where you're you're bringing me.

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bkroger: Yeah. So

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bkroger: I think that a lot of times the catalysts get painted as the pioneers, and we talk about them that way. We think about them that way. We talk about innovators and organizations, and change comes from the innovators.

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bkroger: I think that the real superpower is being a settler, and I think most organizations have pioneers and town planners, and nobody to bridge the gap.

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bkroger: And so I think the to me, the catalyst they see, just like the pioneer, they see the art of the possible. They have this crazy amount of optimism.

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bkroger: but they also have this skepticism about how to get there. So it's like, I see, where we could go. But I'm skeptical about how to get there. They question everything, gather tons of information, and they're the ones that can actually bridge the gap between that crazy vision of all of these pioneers and the town planners, or the status quo

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bkroger: and

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bkroger: that, I think, is a superpower, and it's it's something that I think I've had. But I didn't really like. Note.

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bkroger: you know, be able to put that into language until I had this experience at Kessel Run, because the entire Dod and the Federal Government writ large, and I think a lot of large bureaucracies. They talk so much about innovation.

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bkroger: And it's like you have this horizon 3 like AI Ml blockchain. And then you've got people who can barely open their emails right? And there's this huge gap between the 2. And and the thing we don't appreciate enough is is the settlers, and I think those those are the catalysts. They make that transition, that state change happen. That's a catalyst.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I love that. Yeah, it's, you know, in our initial research, what we saw was this, this subconscious way of working we talk about as the catalyst formula of vision, act and iterate, and it is the combo of vision and act that you're pointing to that is so different than you know. So when people talk about the visionaries in the world, visionaries drive me crazy.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: right? Like the people who can kind of wax poetic. But they can never really get things moving. You know, where catalysts will discount themselves is that they don't like to be there for the long haul, which is probably what is that? The planner is that what the planner.

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bkroger: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: You know, they get it started and they move it into action. You're right with curiosity, and they're testing and they're learning it. But then they're ready to hand it off.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Is that the same for you?

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bkroger: I think so, but I think some of that has to do with the organization. In in Safi Bacall's book Loon Shots. He talks about State transfer a lot. And

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bkroger: I think what happens is

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bkroger: a catalyst can stay long term. You look at like long term founders, such as like Mark Zuckerberg.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Hmm.

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bkroger: I think, also settlers, although they can move into both States, which is interesting. They can sometimes be the pioneer and sometimes be the town planner, and I think every good settler should be able to do that. But their default state is actually that settler state, and they can maintain State transfer right, that that flashpoint between water and freezing.

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bkroger: And and they can keep an organization innovating forever. I think when people get burnt out is when they don't realize that they inadvertently let the State transfer happen, hit the freezing point, and it moves into more of a traditional bureaucratic organization.

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bkroger: and they don't want to be there, and also, at least for me. I also can't live in the world of chaos right like. And so, if you can hold that for as long as you can hold that I think you can stay with it. But as soon as the State transfer happens, I think the catalysts are gone, because there's

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bkroger: there's no need for them anymore. They don't feel at home in the chaos, and they don't feel at home in the in the frozen water.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That's that's so. Well said.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, I'm gonna have to play with that metaphor for a while for me of, you know, kind of what is, what is that habitat? That is just right.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: and I don't know if there's 1. Or if it is that the the changing state that's part of the appeal.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That's really interesting. Thank you. Thank you for the gift of the models and the book.

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bkroger: Yeah. And one thing I'll add to that right. If you think about it from the organizational level, it kind of the analogy breaks down a little bit. But when you have an organization that's on the edge of that state transfer.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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bkroger: There's microcosms of things that are transitioning across right? And so you have these new innovative like horizon, 3 ideas that you're transitioning over into town planning. So the organization as a whole is a blend.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Hmm.

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bkroger: You have individual things that are, you know, status quo

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bkroger: and innovation projects, and the catalyst is then not bored because they continually have new things to transfer

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bkroger: to take from pioneer to like. Oh, now we've settled this territory. Oh, now we've established a town. Let's go establish the next town. Where are the pioneers.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: What you're what you're sharing with me is so helpful. There's I just finished today teaching a round of our class, and and we have a

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: what we call a game map. That shows kind of the skills that take you on the journey of change making. And one of the rectangles on the map is assessing the appetite for change for any particular individual leader, and within the organization. And you're really helping me kind of think about the organization in a different way by likening the organization

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: to one of these 3. You know, kind of ways of being these personas which is so true. Right? It's it's.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: you know, has an organization really settled into itself, and that's the status quo can be so strong then. So that's really helpful. I've never personified the organization that way which makes it so clear. If we just ask, you know, a catalyst? Okay, which one is your organization, how you would see that so quickly, so thank you.

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bkroger: Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I'm curious, you know. We'd love to talk to folks about challenges that they've experienced as catalysts, as catalyst leaders and executives, and you have lived lives in really different organizational context within being in the military. You and I were chatting offline a little bit about what it's like, because I'm not so civilian, so I really don't know it, and you were disabusing me of some of the kind of ignorance and bias

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I have there of. You know there's a lot of risk of changing in that environment. So that would be one reason. It's slow. But also

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: you can be catalytic because it's harder to be fired right. There's this interesting duality. Now you are the founder and CEO of your own institution that is, doing things that are remarkable in the world and blazing trails. So I would love to understand what are some of the biggest challenges you faced as a catalyst leader in both environments. And I'm curious if they're the same or different.

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bkroger: Yeah.

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bkroger: So in the in the military environment, I'll start there. Yeah.

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bkroger: you know, Kessel Run, which is a Star Wars reference, right, and people assume because it was a devops thing. It was about 12 parsecs, you know, doing fast or shortest distance, actually measure of distance.

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bkroger: But

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bkroger: I always like to remind people that the the Star Wars story arc right? The Empire strikes back

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bkroger: right? So we have that moment, and you go a little farther along it gets worse. The rebellion's totally crushed. The Jedi are nowhere to be found right. And then there's this comeback, and I think

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bkroger: people think. And and I thought this, too, that you know

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bkroger: I misinterpreted where that ark hit its bottom. And so I thought when we were fighting our way through establishing Kessel Run that was like, oh, the Empire struck back. And now we're on the upside.

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bkroger: What I found out was like that was just a little blip on my way up.

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bkroger: and and the Empire struck back much later and much harder. And I think that's where people give up.

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bkroger: And to.

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bkroger: So one thing that I learned there was was about perseverance and and really getting people to rally. I mean, it's not unlike the Star Wars story like you got to get the galaxy rebels to rally again, and that can be really hard to do when you're down as well. And so we had this. This is a ridiculous thing, and he'd probably kill me for this. But there was this guy that worked for Eric Schmidt on the Defense Innovation Board, and maybe I won't name him just just in case.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Oh, good!

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bkroger: This analogy from his friend at Darden. That said Government innovation is is like

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bkroger: they called it pumping your bunny. And so this guy had kids, and he said, You take his kids to the beach, and he had this big bunny inflatable.

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bkroger: and he would blow it up, blow it up, blow it up, put his kids out there on the water, and like, after being out on the water for a while, it's like all deflated. The kids come in. They're all sad, and then he has to pump the bunny up again. And it's just this funny way of saying, like, you got to pump up people's bunnies so they can get back out on the water. And I would say you.

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bkroger: it's really easy to get surrounded by cynical people, even though we talk about catalysts as being optimists, cynicism sets in really hard when the bureaucracy strikes back. And so, finding those like forever optimists and those people that can charge you back up. That was really important.

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bkroger: And then maybe the second lesson that I learned is as we discussed and you alluded to. I actually think you have an advantage in government, and that you can't get fired, and I think the consequences of being a change maker in commercial, large enterprise. They happen swifter, and they're more severe. And we're talking about livelihoods right? Like your jobs, at risk your ability to feed your families at risk. If you push too hard.

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bkroger: You don't have that in military. Well, that allowed me to take great liberty with how I approach situations. And

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bkroger: I it feels really good in the early days to be the rebel

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bkroger: rather than the revolutionary, and the difference between the rebel and the revolutionary is the revolutionary is thinking long term.

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bkroger: and knows that the people that you're fighting today have to be your allies tomorrow.

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bkroger: And I totally messed that up.

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bkroger: And it came. It came to bite us in many ways. And so I learned a lot about managing relationships in the enterprise, even when it feels good to just tell them how stupid I think they are. It's not good, and also part of that comes with not only just recognizing the long term consequences of that, but also gaining empathy for those people. Because over time I realized these weren't bad people.

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bkroger: They were actually really good people stuck in a really bad system.

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bkroger: And so I think when you combine those 2 things it allows you to to navigate those early interactions much better.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Okay, there is so much amazingness that I'd love to to double click on.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: In the 1st example, you made mention that you said it wasn't the beginning. That was the low point. It came later. Can you bring us a little bit more into that? So what happened? And I don't know if maybe you can't tell the details. But what happens if we're talking archetypically of, we think we're here, we're building. We're on the way up. And then you said, then it hit what hit.

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bkroger: Yeah,

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bkroger: have to be a little careful. But I'll say, you know, getting these innovation type efforts off the ground is always really challenging. Yeah? And so

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bkroger: in the Federal government, these programs through government programs to buy software

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bkroger: are often like 10 year programs. And they have Congressional funding behind them. So like getting your funding is literally an act of Congress.

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bkroger: So as you can imagine, shutting down a program is very difficult. So we had this failing software program called Aoc Air Operations Center Weapon System 10.2.

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bkroger: It had been going for 10 years it had spent.

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bkroger: I want to say, like 500 million dollars, half a billion dollars and hadn't produced any software yet.

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bkroger: hadn't delivered anything to the field.

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bkroger: And so

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bkroger: Senator Mccain, famously like, it's so hard to shut down a program. Basically, what he did is he like withheld the funding and said they wouldn't get their next round of funding unless they changed course. And so that gave us this opportunity to come in. But even then getting people to buy off on switching from waterfall like 10 year waterfall software development the government was used to to hey, we want to continuously deliver really small increments of software.

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bkroger: You know, we're going to ship an Mvp. For tanker planning right? How do we refuel jets

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bkroger: that are trying to fly around the globe that freaks people out a little bit? The consequences of getting that wrong are pretty pretty harsh. And so

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bkroger: yeah, I mean, we we were getting beat up left and right. Getting called in front of leaders and everything. And and they weren't the kindest of interactions. We'll just say, then we finally got approved to go forward. And I was like, Oh, it's over like we. We did it, and then we shipped our 1st app.

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bkroger: and it was the tanker planner app, and it started saving $214,000 a day in fuel.

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bkroger: which is not just a dollar savings, but like an economic boom. Because funny story. The EPA reached out to me like maybe 6 months in. And the EPA wanted to send us money.

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bkroger: They're like, Hey, we have R&D funds. Can you build an algorithm that makes that even more fuel efficient, like really cool, cool story, and the app paid for itself.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Time woo we made it.

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bkroger: Yeah. And so I was like, All right, we got approved. Our 1st app is a wild success. It got featured in fast company, like military software never gets featured in fast company.

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bkroger: right?

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bkroger: And then the bureaucracy struck back and and started

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bkroger: trying to undo a lot of the changes we were made. It started in like innocent ways about like, oh, this is really cool. Can you use this to do it the old way, you know, like, here's our list of requirements, and and then it got to the point where people were trying to defund, trying to force us off of some of the technology choices we had made. And you know there was a moment for me. And it's when I decided to leave where

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bkroger: they told us that you know, we we were really big on leveraging commercial technology, just like

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bkroger: warfighters that are depending on me to deliver them software. They don't care about kubernetes. Infrastructure. Okay.

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bkroger: so I'm just gonna buy that right? And and we bought our platform as a service and our underlying, you know, Cloud.

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bkroger: and there was a move to like, oh, that's we're too reliant on vendors. We have to build it ourselves. And they wanted to build their own Kubernetes platform.

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bkroger: And I was like, this is a waste of money. You're going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on things that are not applications, which is what the warfighters actually need

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bkroger: and and distract from the mission, and and they succeeded in doing that. And I think,

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bkroger: you know, I left so I can't speak for what happened afterwards, but I feel like they spent the next 5 years chasing

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bkroger: a bunch of things that were below the value line and distracted them from their real mission.

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bkroger: Now I'm getting ready to make the comeback.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Right. No, thank you for sharing that right, the painful moments. And in the class I was mentioning earlier we talk, we name this phenomenon, the corporate immune response. And we actually have a little gift that we show of a bacteria landing. And the red blood cells are like whatever. And then they're like big white cells like

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: coming after you right? So like you land, you think it's good. I'm copacetic. And then the immune response kicks in

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: and going back to the, you know, metaphor, pioneer settler, planner, right in an organization. There's so much there to maintain a status quo.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: You said that was the point at which you left. That's a really hard moment for catalyst to know. When do I stay and stay, stay and keep up with the fight?

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: How do I know when it's time to go.

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bkroger: Hmm! That's my favorite.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Advice do you have? How do you know when it's time to go.

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bkroger: Yeah. So you know,

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bkroger: conversation that happens in the military history around like kind of military rebels. A lot of times is mutiny.

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bkroger: And I think that there's there's a couple of things I'll say here. One. My litmus test was.

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bkroger: does my integrity demand my insubordination.

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bkroger: which you know, very hierarchical organization, and so that might not be language that all of your enterprise people. But I I think that kind of understand the sentiment is

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bkroger: at some point, even if I'm right.

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bkroger: like, if I have leadership moving out in one direction and I'm pulling the organization in another.

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bkroger: Okay, I might think they're going to fail.

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bkroger: I could also be wrong, right?

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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bkroger: Leadership might be right and I might be wrong.

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bkroger: So there's a chance that they'll fail. But if we're pulling the organization in separate directions. There's a hundred percent chance that we'll fail.

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bkroger: And so I just think, like at some point for the good of the organization. If if you can't right. The ship, whether that's being, you know.

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bkroger: getting promoted into the leadership position, or taking charge or convincing that person to go that direction.

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bkroger: You've got to leave, and the other option would be to subordinate yourself to somebody. But you're now sacrificing your integrity. You're doing things you don't believe in.

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bkroger: and I think that's catalysts can't operate in those environments.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Agreed.

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bkroger: And then there is a point, though, because some people say like, Well, Brian, you say like how serious the consequences of these things are, and like.

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bkroger: So how could you walk away from that? Really believing that they're going down the wrong direction? I would say the thing about mutiny that they always say is like you. Better be dang sure you're right, because if you lead a mutiny on a submarine and you get back to port, they're going to lead an investigation and decide who is right.

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bkroger: And you know, if you let a mutiny and you were in the wrong, you're going to jail. And so similarly like the consequences of that, are pretty dire, and I didn't have enough confidence.

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bkroger: To know that that was the case, and also the other thing I'll say to help out catalysts is

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bkroger: especially if there's other ways you can engage in the organization, or maybe not even the organization. But the mission that you care about is to think about this like like chess.

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bkroger: I think a lot of people looked at Kessel Run as

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bkroger: the the like destination a lot of my fellow innovators, and so they weren't ready to walk away from the match, and I was looking at it, and I said we already got checkmated.

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bkroger: The goal here, though, isn't to win this match. The goal is to get really good at playing chess

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bkroger: so that I can win the larger match. Right? This is just a battle there. There's a war like I'm trying to transform Gov tech.

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bkroger: And so my goal is just to keep playing matches, and when I lose a match

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bkroger: I start a new one, and I'm getting really good at playing chess and rise. 8 gives me a great ability to do that because I'm not in the government. And I get stuck in one program. And I'm subject to assignment systems and bureaucracy.

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bkroger: 20 different customers. And I get to try 20 different approaches and 20 different methods. We just keep playing the game, and we're better and better at playing chess, and the goal is to beat the bureaucracy in a chess match

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bkroger: and then start beating them over and over and over again until we're the we're the victor.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: It's it's a perfect transition. So

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: as a catalyst executive like now you are founder, CEO. Getting to call the shots are the challenges different.

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bkroger: Good, very different.

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bkroger: part of it is probably the transition from government to private. I was playing with other people's money. You're all, thank you. Taxpayers. There's a big difference between playing with somebody else's money and and your own, or you know, and and the the livelihoods of all my employees are at stake. I have a hundred 25 employees now who depend on me, so

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bkroger: that changes the calculus a little bit as does not being in control, because I'm I'm a Con. You know, more of a consultant role rather than than the owner.

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bkroger: But I would say that a few things I have to rely on creating other catalysts now.

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bkroger: So maybe that. And and maybe that's something I should have been doing when I was at. And I just wasn't. But I would say, like, now I I can't be the catalyst. I have to be able to create catalysts.

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bkroger: and I think this has been a big transition for me

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bkroger: especially, I'm like, naturally, and an educator. I love educating. I love talking and learning, but you have to get really deliberate about your time.

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bkroger: And so I tell people. Oh, I care about

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bkroger: training and educating people and and helping my employees. But if you look at my calendar. It doesn't reflect that.

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bkroger: And I always tell people when we're having product conversations or organizational transformation. I say, I always know somebody's priorities. If I just take a look at their calendar.

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bkroger: And so I got called out that my calendar wasn't full of those activities.

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bkroger: And so I've started reorienting my calendar around creating other catalysts.

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bkroger: And so like one activity that I started

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bkroger: in the middle of this year in the summer is an internal, podcast it's internal only it allows me to be much more candid. It's called Irise. There's like a double entendre there

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bkroger: of being inside rise 8. And and it's about personal growth, so that we can enable the growth of our customers.

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bkroger: And so it's it's things like that

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bkroger: that I think if you want to be a catalyst

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bkroger: leader at some point. You've got to make the transition to producing other catalysts.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I think for some of us the why behind that is obvious. But I'd love to just ask like, why do we need to create other catalysts?

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bkroger: On scale.

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bkroger: And and I think it's gonna be unique to your organization. Right? Mine is mine is interesting because I'm sending people out to create change in other organizations. So like, I probably need way more of them.

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bkroger: You know, we we send out like small 2 pizza teams. So for every 8 employees. I need a catalyst.

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bkroger: so it might be different, depending on your organizational model.

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bkroger: But you can't be everywhere at once.

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bkroger: and you know, at Kessel run. I got to. I think we were at about 600 people when I left

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bkroger: and we started to have a lot of the.

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bkroger: because I think a lot of the catalyst concept becomes culture.

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bkroger: I think culture is what you do, and when you act as a catalyst you create a culture

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bkroger: of catalytic change, and

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bkroger: the farther people got away from the founders like as we grew and brought on new people

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bkroger: that started to decay.

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bkroger: And

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bkroger: That meant that when we weren't in the room the right conversations weren't happening. The right vision wasn't there, and the right actions weren't taking place.

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bkroger: So at some point it it.

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bkroger: All of this rests on the fact that I don't believe command and control or centralized control. Decentralized execution works. Mission command to me is the only model that works the very military terms. But they appear in tech circles a lot these days, or like team of teams, is another popular one, but like decentralized autonomous teams, they need high alignment.

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bkroger: But if all you have is alignment, and you don't have the knowledge and the skills and the why

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bkroger: those teams, like every team, needs a catalyst essentially is what it comes down to.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And so in cultivating your catalysts, it sounds like you call it culture is that kind of the primary element that you think that they bring? Or is there some other element given that they're kind of out client facing in small teams.

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bkroger: Yeah, I think that culture is always a fuzzy word. Right? So we talk about beliefs.

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bkroger: traits and skills.

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bkroger: And really, I think that

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bkroger: beliefs and and traits are really skills, too, they're all trainable.

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bkroger: They're just collections, Meta.

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bkroger: getting bigger and bigger. So like patience is this big, vague concept. But I can break it down into a bunch of discrete actions like what to do in the meantime, and now I can train you on like. What do you do? In the meantime.

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bkroger: or you know, vibes is the popular word with the kids these days. Got good vibes. It's like, but what what are the good vibes. It's like, Oh, well, when I'm talking he nods at me. Oh, okay, all right, we can train that right, charisma, like another thing similar to vibes. It's like

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bkroger: there are all these little things, and we can train every single one of them. So that's kind of my fundamental belief is is you can train all of those things. You can either start by teaching people what to think, and hoping that produces the right actions. I think that's a failed model. I like the new me story.

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bkroger: the joint venture between Toyota and GM, the big takeaway from it. I guess the short version you can go. Listen. There's like a whole, this American life podcast episode about it. It's fantastic for the audience if you're interested in this. But

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bkroger: Toyota just took former GM. Employees who were like drinking and gambling on the job like terrible culture, right sabotaging vehicles.

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bkroger: And they didn't give them a bunch of computer-based training and like. Don't drink on the job training and slides, and whatever they just said come work with us in a different way.

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bkroger: and they went and worked with them in a factory in Japan, and they came back, and within 3 months is the highest performing auto manufacturing plant in the United States, and remained so until it shuttered in the 2,008 crisis.

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bkroger: And that's an example of

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bkroger: they trained the culture right people saw the result of working in a different way and that started to alter their attitudes and their beliefs. So I think all of the things that you describe about catalysts just like anything else. It's a list of beliefs and character traits.

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bkroger: and and ultimately those result in actions that require skills. I believe that I can train all of them. The question is just, is it worth training

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bkroger: depends on where somebody starting from like probably want somebody that's more of a natural or has some of that experience.

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bkroger: but it's definitely trainable. It's just a question of is there a good roi and investing in this person as a catalyst? So.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That's fair. That takes me back to the other. Another place I want to double. Click.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Then I promise I'll wrap up with you and let you get on with your day. But rebel revolutionary.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: how trainable

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: is the divide between those! And what does that training path look like? I'd love to hear kind of stories from your own life in that transition.

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bkroger: Yeah, I think this one's just a lot easier.

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bkroger: because this one's not even really about the skills.

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bkroger: It's it's just a belief. And like once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's really easy to look around it like rebellions get crushed

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bkroger: always.

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bkroger: And and the difference between the rebellion or the rebels and the revolutionaries is their mindset.

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bkroger: This is just about long-term thinking.

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bkroger: thinking about long-term value. One thing we didn't really talk about in the

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bkroger: another thing I think about when I think of catalysts and

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bkroger: really culture in general, there's a great book called the I think it was called the triple helix

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bkroger: Amy Chua, the woman that wrote Tiger mom. Very controversial book, wrote one about culture as well, and I thought it was interesting. I don't necessarily agree with everything in the book, but they identified 3 traits of very successful cultures. And I'll paraphrase here. But it's essentially they have, like a superiority belief about themselves. Like the higher calling. Like

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bkroger: we are superior, we should be superior. They have crippling insecurity.

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bkroger: and they're really good at delayed gratification.

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bkroger: Or they have strong impulse control, and I think that

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bkroger: that kind of if I reframe those. And I love Adler and his. You know, psychology frameworks. He talks about inferiority and superiority a lot.

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bkroger: I think, that people don't lean into both of those enough

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bkroger: like our modern culture talks too much about carrots and not enough about sticks, and I don't care if it's a carrot, or a stick or cheese and a cat, and I'm a mouse like whatever it is.

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bkroger: You just lean into whatever you've got, like, whatever your fuel is at any given time. And I think it's important to have actually a balance of both people get worried about their imposter syndrome. I always tell people your imposter syndrome is you telling yourself about a skill deficiency? Nobody wants to say that anymore. We're like. No, you've got it. You're powerful. Look in the mirror and tell yourself how great you are. And it's like, no, actually, your insecurity is probably telling you something you might be great. I'm not saying you're not great.

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bkroger: but if you, if you feel like an imposter when you're going on stage, maybe you need to train more.

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bkroger: and it might be people might be like, Oh, well, you're like an 8 out of 10 speaker. But if your standards 10 out of 10. You're gonna feel like an imposter until you become a 10 out of 10. So your fear is telling you something, and you should let your insecurity, guide your growth

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bkroger: and your vision, guide your growth both.

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bkroger: and then, if you're really good at delayed gratification, you'll make it so. That's the revolutionary, like the revolutionary has both. They know where they want to go. They're scared of what's behind them.

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bkroger: and they can wait.

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bkroger: Gary Vee has this great quote. I won't swear on podcasts. But he says, your lack of patience will f you over. And I think that's the most true statement. I have it posted on my wall is like

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bkroger: I've had to learn a lot more patience to become more successful. I used to think that like, go fast, go fast, go fast. Go fast. Fast. Looks a lot different when you zoom out

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bkroger: like. I'm still going fast, but it's way less fast than I was probably going 5 years ago at a tactical level.

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bkroger: So I have strategic patience and tactical urgency. And I think that's that's the difference.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: I think you just made the case that there are skills that sit behind these like, yeah, it's mindsets, but that, you know long term thinking I'm hearing

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: you know. Make sure you have articulated the vision that you know it, that you can communicate it.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: The you know you. You talk about it as insecurity, but there's I hear it underlying of like humility, and you allowing your insecurity to guide you in where you need to lean and listen.

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bkroger: I also appreciate. You didn't say this, but what I heard when you were talking about is like.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Societally have we learned to gaslight ourselves into.

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bkroger: And so like, you got this.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: As opposed to like. No, like the fear is warranted.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: and you know, listen to that, and go do the work.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: So I was totally giggling. Oh, my gosh! That's a hilarious thing to think that our modern day self-help is is gaslighting, and then patience! Patience is a skill. And then to add, on that notion of strategic patience, I think I think you've got several books right there inside of you

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: coming soon, Brian Kroger on the shelf. So thank you. That was, that was a beautiful model.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Okay, clearly, you and I could yap all day. But I'm gonna ask my final question of.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Tell me about someone or someones that have been a favorite catalyst for you past, present folks who inspire you, and why they stand out.

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bkroger: There's a few. There's 1 in military history that I always like. His name is Colonel John Boyd

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bkroger: Air Force. Maybe he was a bit of of a rebel, too much of a rebel.

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bkroger: He was actually one that got fired so you can get fired. He got court-martialed

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bkroger: but he, he! Very much that line that I talked about before about, you know when your integrity demands your insubordination. But then, like what if the stakes of letting people continue to go down the road are too high.

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bkroger: and he made that decision and paid for it with his career, as you know, amazing officer! He was going places, but he did what he believed was right. And he has this really great roll call that also kind of guides my thinking. So there's this act of like knowing when the stakes are too high, and you've just got to put everything on the line and try to do right. And, by the way, even though he got court-martialed, he forever changed the Air Force.

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bkroger: and so, like the end result.

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bkroger: He paid the price. But he made the change that he wanted to see, and and I think believed it was worth it. But he said, in life there's a roll call, and you have to decide if you want to be somebody or do something.

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bkroger: And most people choose to be somebody.

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bkroger: and they, you know, become the favorite of their superiors, and they get along.

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bkroger: and they get good marks, and they get good assignments, but they never actually accomplish anything.

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bkroger: And this is like very true of the military, and I would say political institutions in general.

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bkroger: and he said instead, you have to choose to do something, and you you won't be everybody's favorite. You might not get promoted, you might lose your career, but you'll be able to know that you lived the life you wanted to lead, and created the change that you wanted to see. And so

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bkroger: it's easy to fall into the trap of being somebody, even when you're a doer. You're like, Oh, well, I have to politic a little bit to get this or to get that.

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bkroger: And he said, it's too easy to lose sight of the fact that you're doing that

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bkroger: for the ultimate aim, and it starts to become the aim itself because it feels so good. So

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bkroger: yeah, that's that's a big one for me that always stands out, and that kind of model I live by, and then a living person that I've actually met. I'll say

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bkroger: I've always been

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bkroger: so. Enrique, who he was, the person I reached out at at Diu Defense Innovation unit to start the Kessel Run journey. Enrique Odi. He was Colonel Odie at the time.

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bkroger: Super.

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bkroger: I've never met somebody in my life. He was a pioneer, like true tried and true pioneer, so it also drove me crazy sometimes, and we butted heads a lot, but I've never met somebody who could catalyze change with words

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bkroger: so well. He's just somebody I aspire to like.

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bkroger: Man. I wish I could command

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bkroger: like he could walk into a room and just get everybody fired up about the craziest things, and they go and and take action, not just fired up and like feel good, but like they would go do things right and couldn't, couldn't have done what we did without him.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Well shout out to Enrique, and thank you for both of those tying some of the the concepts together. It sounds like for you. Colonel Boyd was like a strategic

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: rebel that maybe he made the call. That revolution wasn't possible.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: and so it was worth it to

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: kind of die on the hill for that one which is such an interesting idea. If you're choosing to be a doer

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: because you kind of talked about your early days of rebel and and revolutionary being almost unconscious and not understanding the difference between it. And so it becomes really different if you do, and then

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: you move toward rebellion. Anyway.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: That's interesting. Call.

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bkroger: Yeah, I don't know if you made the right one.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: Sure, sure. And we can't ask him today. But yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: amazing to think about. I have so enjoyed getting to know you, Brian. Thank you so much for being here with me today.

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bkroger: Yeah. Likewise, it's been a lot of fun.

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Tracey Lovejoy - Catalyst Constellations: And thank you so much to the audience for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out the book, move fast, break Shipburn out, or head to the website at catalystconstellations.com. And I know you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did, so. Please take a moment to hit the rating the like on itunes. Spotify stitcher wherever you're listening, and for all the other catalysts in your life. They need to hear this wisdom, so please hit the share button and send a link their way. Thank you again and thank you. Audience.