Brynn Shader, founder of ChangeCraft - ChangeCraft: Redefining How We Lead Transformation

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon Lucas, one of the co-ceos at Catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break, shit burnout. Where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. Today, I'm super excited to have time with Bryn Shader. Brynn is the creator of changecraft, a consulting and speaking platform and methodology that helps leaders turn disruption into opportunity. Amen. With 16 plus years in organizational change management. She ditches rigid frameworks for practical, human-centered strategies that drive real impact

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: known for her, no filter honesty and infectious energy, Bryn partners with Fortune, 500 companies and growing organizations to transform change resistance into resilience. I'm guessing our audience can hear why I'm so excited to connect with you. She's also a crossfit athlete and a long distance swimmer. She thrives in discomfort, proving that growth comes from challenge, whether advising executives or lighting up the stage. Brynn crafts change that sticks so fun to have you here

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Brynn Shader: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: All right, let's jump in. So that's like, obviously, the brief synopsis of your amazing journey. But I'd love to hear in your words maybe a few career highlights that you're proud of, that help us see your catalytic nature

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Brynn Shader: Yeah. So the 1st one that comes to mind is

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Brynn Shader: It all started with a temp agency. So those aren't really around anymore. I think you know, that's kind of transitioned into contractors and staff augmentation. But I joined a woman owned temp agency when I was out of Grad school, living in DC. And

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Brynn Shader: Looking for an opportunity. I was placed at a Bloomberg startup, so it was called Bloomberg Government, and it was a Startup division of the Bloomberg. We all know, you know, data news analytics, but it was focused on translating the business implications of government action.

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Brynn Shader: Now I was placed there to be a Crm administrator for salesforce.

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Brynn Shader: I'm there. I'm building their environment, I mean, I'm I'm cleaning up messes from one of their senior executives who was recruited and had to have salesforce.

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Brynn Shader: So I had taught myself salesforce at a previous role and was doing that. And then the Vp of sales comes over to me. There was maybe 10 employees at the time, and he was like, I don't know what you're doing over here, but with that energy like, I need you in sales.

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Brynn Shader: We're building a sales force. This is going to be a massive, you know organization which it is. And I trusted him because I respected him, and so for a while I was doing both. I was a salesforce administrator, and I was a sales associate, and I was

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Brynn Shader: at the time I was onboarding new sales, associates, new people who were peers, but also executives who were sales, executives, for example, or even data like reporting executives who needed to understand how to use salesforce to report on the sales team, and so I ended up

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Brynn Shader: falling in love with onboarding.

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Brynn Shader: and I was like. I care more and more passionate about putting structures and processes and building culture that supports the thriving of my fellow employees and leaders than I do about my clients which I loved my clients, but it wasn't the same. So that was a wake up call that showed me I needed to be in Hr. And so

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Brynn Shader: fast forward I moved into. I moved across the country, packed all my stuff in a car, and this was before I interviewed at 6 different staffing agencies. In 2 days I flew from DC. Over to Denver, booked 3 1 day, 3 the next day, and received several offers, because everyone told me. If you want to be in Hr. You have to recruit. And so that's what I did.

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Brynn Shader: I ended up recruiting for a couple of years the next catalyst kind of, or like highlight of my journey, was when I was recruited into a small boutique staffing company, and I essentially built their it desk.

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Brynn Shader: There was no it Division. They were a construction staffing company, and so I that was a highlight for me, because I was going out and selling staffing services. Who? What were the staffing services me? And then I was filling the roles, and I had so much fun with that. But I realized that I wanted to see and be a part of

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Brynn Shader: the growth and development of the employees. I was placing the technical talent that I was placing. So then I said, okay, well, so my passion is not talent acquisition. It's actually in the business. So that kind of led to me going internal into Hr. For I worked at Cu and the next milestone which I'll stop there is really. I was recruited to build and

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Brynn Shader: execute a leadership development program at Cu, but then also they were implementing peoplesoft. They were going from 8.9 to 9.2, which at the time was like a brand new technology. So I was sent, I went out and

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Brynn Shader: talk about resistance. I was convincing, super super tenured Hr. Professionals. I'm talking 20 years

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Brynn Shader: to be open to, ready and willing to accept the massive changes to their role that this new technology was going to bring. And that was when I fell in love with the intersection of people process and technology and started to do change management before it was even called change management

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So many amazing takeaways there, I love your fearlessness. I love, you know, a catalyst often described. There was one boss who, or person in the organization who saw the value that we bring, that we might not even know in ourselves, and they might not even be able to articulate it like you said like, I don't know what you're doing over here, but you need to come work for me. Right?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes, yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: but you leaned into that that you kept really checking in on what your passion was, but that you were also bringing this intentionality of like. If I want to get into Hr. The people say, I have to do X. If I want to do this, I have to have the tech skills to bring it along. So thank you. And so I think it's a great pivot for you. What has been helpful in terms of understanding what it means to be a catalyst executive like? How do you relate to that concept? And how has maybe, being a catalyst, supported your journey

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Brynn Shader: Yeah. So I've been a catalyst my entire life before I like. Knew what that was until I read the book and met you, Shannon, but I think that the way that the catalyst experience manifested for me was challenging in the beginning it was a constant need for more. It was a constant look, looking or always looking around at problems, finding problems everywhere and not being okay, just

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Brynn Shader: sitting and letting those problems, no matter where the problem was letting those problems continue. And you know, when I some of these roles that I've had in my life, when I was internal before I went out on my own was challenging. There's structures. There's there's personalities. There's politics. There's people on teams who.

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Brynn Shader: if you try, you know, to help solve a problem that maybe they didn't realize was there. And you do it in a way that doesn't work for them. They are not an ally. They become, you know.

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Brynn Shader: an enemy is strong, but a resistor. And so I think, early on, when I was, you know, a young young woman.

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Brynn Shader: I consider myself to be lucky. I grew up with incredible parents, who put me in therapy when I was very young, so that I could understand my emotions and be able to articulate. So I feel really grateful for that. I was always. I was like more self-aware than I think most people my age, but I still struggled with what to do with this energy, and how to be in an organization

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Brynn Shader: where I could leverage everything that I had to offer for the benefit of everyone around me.

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Brynn Shader: And so, you know, I think that I made mistakes along the way. I trusted, you know people who I thought

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Brynn Shader: valued what I brought to the table, and maybe you know their minds changed because they were receiving pressure from another place. But I've had leaders along the way, like when I was at vail resorts and I was on. I was in Hr. I was on the Talent development team.

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Brynn Shader: I my, I I spread my wings as like a catalyst executive because I was given. I was trusted by my leader, and I flew.

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Brynn Shader: I went and helped with mergers and acquisitions the cultural integration side of it, because I raised my hand, and I said they need support. Who is running? The people change management side of it, and of course, like vail resorts, is an amazing well, it would. I think things have changed, you know, in the past couple years, but I I think you know, I was able to really like

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Brynn Shader: be a catalyst because I had that leader, and that made all the difference for me. When I was internal

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: You described so well. I mean, obviously like a personal journey, too. But it's the the even when, because I agree like therapy and self-awareness and all of those things. It wasn't until Tracy gave me, though, the you know, the readout on the preliminary research about catalyst that I was like. Oh.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: they don't all have the same desire for change like it just sounds so obvious. But to your point it's like, you know, you could be the fly in the ointment for them, because you're like, and you do with such good intentions. But to them you're just complaining or pointing out all the things that are wrong, or the things that they don't want to do or like things they don't understand.

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Brynn Shader: Yep.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Real toll. But conversely, and for listeners, it's like, if you see someone who's got catalyst potential in your organization just giving them the sandbox and a little bit of support can have 10 x 100 X dividends. It doesn't take much for us to

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Brynn Shader: It doesn't take much

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, yeah.

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Brynn Shader: It doesn't

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's a good pivot. Actually, let's pivot to the conversation about like, you know, you talked about the intersection of the people tech and the processes and given your history. With that, I'd love to get your thoughts on, sort of like the role that Hr. Needs to play right now, helping their companies not just survive in this time of, like, you know, violent disruption

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Brynn Shader: Yeah, oh, so it's so in Hr. Is so interesting.

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Brynn Shader: Like I went to, I volunteered at one of the national sherm conferences recently, and I just get

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Brynn Shader: overwhelmed by the love that these people have for people.

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Brynn Shader: not all of them, you know. It's not always, you know. It's not always gonna be that way. But there is no other organ. There is no other function in an organization that exists

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Brynn Shader: for the benefit of people of the people

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Brynn Shader: in a lot of the talks that I give. I you know I I give like a brief history of Hr. I give like a 2 min history of Hr.

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Brynn Shader: And

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Brynn Shader: I think that you know we started off as welfare managers we were. We were making sure that people weren't getting limbs cut off in factories, and that children, you know, were being protected from from child labor.

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Brynn Shader: And then, you know, there was the Civil Rights Movement and Equal Pay Act, and we became we were doing. We were doing, you know, this, this protection. But then, now we had to protect the organization from not a machine, or, like, you know, something physical, but regulations

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Brynn Shader: this intangible thing, and we became protectors in another way. And so I think that

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Brynn Shader: for the evolution of Hr. Until recently.

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Brynn Shader: the you know, the the function has been under utilized is oh, oh, not even the word. They have been

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Brynn Shader: transactional and protectors of risk for the organization. However.

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Brynn Shader: the people who end up in Hr

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Brynn Shader: are people who care about other people. They have unbelievable, untapped skills that that really could benefit the organization. But we need to get them there. Hr. Needs to get themselves there, and then they need to partner with the organization to create this new paradigm

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Brynn Shader: and to to. You know, it's like change management 101,

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Brynn Shader: you know, one of the the key skills of change management is that you selling? You have to sell an idea, and that doesn't mean manipulating. That means spending time to find out with them what is in it for them.

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Brynn Shader: what is in it for them. What is the benefit? And so I think that you know this this evolution of Hr. And the journey, and what I talk about in front of, you know. Hr. Audiences is that we are in an unprecedented time.

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Brynn Shader: And I, you know, in your book you guys talk about Vuca. And when I'm speaking. I also talk about Bonnie.

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Brynn Shader: which is this this? It was a new framework in Covid, because Luca doesn't even explain it anymore, especially with AI. Bonnie explains this new level of ambiguity. Brittleness.

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Brynn Shader: that is, is like calling us to operate at a different level, and Hr.

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Brynn Shader: Can be the guide.

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Brynn Shader: But 1st they need to build agility within their own teams, right? And that is not what they're used to.

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Brynn Shader: They're not. I mean, you talk about agility and experimentation with teams, compliance teams or payroll teams. They're like

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Brynn Shader: what you're in. You're out of your mind. But there is always space for experimentation and to bring agile ways of working into Hr. There's also change management capabilities, like, you know, storytelling, visual storytelling, communicating aligning leaders. And I think some of these capabilities they already have.

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Brynn Shader: especially if it's a large Hr. Organization, and they have like talent management, and they have, like these other groups who are really have different skill sets than payroll like I. You know my previous client had payroll under finance, and I think that that actually makes more sense. Because the skill set and the desires are different. But so

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Brynn Shader: so if I I could talk about this forever. But I don't want to bore users, and I or audience, and I want to answer the question.

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Brynn Shader: I think that there is such an incredible opportunity right now for Hr. To leverage their mastery and human insights.

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Brynn Shader: to to create unparalleled resilience and innovation in the business.

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Brynn Shader: But what and I call that change? Hr, but what that means is, they need to spend time making sure that the cobbler's son has shoes.

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Brynn Shader: building internal change, management capabilities on their teams within their organizations.

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Brynn Shader: Then they need to learn how to speak the language of the business.

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Brynn Shader: and that is one of, I think, a big gap in many, many Hr. Organizations. You can you ask an Hr. Executive or an Hr. You know, Director, what

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Brynn Shader: the business does to make, how they make money or what are the strategic goals?

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Brynn Shader: Hr. Needs to know that they need to be able to speak in numbers, they need to be able to translate 2 way the needs of their executives into the people needs so that they can showcase their value, which is so there, it's just untapped, and bring like like, elevate the their people to an entirely different level.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: So

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: what advice do you have for Hr leaders who may not be catalysts themselves to think about the role that either existing catalysts in their organization have, or the need for bringing in some catalysts into the Hr organization to

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: help with all the disruption, the positive disruption, the experimentation, the agility building that you're talking about

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Brynn Shader: Yeah, I would say. So. There's there's 2 things that come to mind. The 1st thing is to do, you know, a talent audit. Whatever an assessment of the existing people that they have in Hr. That they have on their teams, that they haven't, you know, in the department.

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Brynn Shader: and seek out these characteristics

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Brynn Shader: and see like who bubbles up to the top. You know, the 1st thing that comes to mind that is like really comfortable language. For Hr. Is high performers, right? But a high performer isn't necessarily a catalyst.

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Brynn Shader: A catalyst, I think, is someone who wants to make change.

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Brynn Shader: and they have these, you know. I read through these 5 or

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Brynn Shader: like characteristics. You call them catalyst traits, like an inherent drive toward action.

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Brynn Shader: constant possibility and clear visions, subconscious data collection like they're always looking for the problems and data to support any potential solutions. This 4th one, though, I think, is really really critical right now, in this unprecedented time of change, this experimentation, mindset. And I talk about this all the time, agility, agility, agility, agility. But what is agility. What's the difference between agility and adaptability?

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Brynn Shader: And so I think you know, I would say that identifying these potential catalysts like individuals on the team who have cataly catalytic. How do you say that catalystic

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Catalytic.

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Brynn Shader: Characteristics.

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Brynn Shader: and have conversations with them about their goals, their career goals, their values, their passions, their motivations. Hopefully. You know, those conversations are already happening. And if they're not, then those are really important.

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Brynn Shader: Find that group

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Brynn Shader: create some kind of like a catalyst agent network, bring them together because they are the most powerful when they are together, and they can feed off of each other. And then I would say, the second thing is based on that assessment. And that audit.

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Brynn Shader: What are what are the goals like? What right we can't

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Brynn Shader: we? If we're in the middle of the ocean and we don't know our final destination. We'll end up, you know, in China versus if we're trying to go to Panama. So I think you know, having this vision and knowing where Hr. As a function wants to go

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's right.

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Brynn Shader: And where these capabilities and these catalysts can actually enable those goals. But also right. Don't stop at Hr's strategic goals. They have to tie and enable the organization's goals

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: 100% totally. And I mean, I think it's interesting, like, we talk about high potential because it is like one of the easiest ways to help people connect the dots. But the way that I describe the difference now is, and it's a little bit cynical, I'll own that. But you know, historically, high potential programs have looked and been able to identify people who crush their kpis, their objectives, their goals, and manage up really well.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And the challenge with catalysts is, we're often intentionally flying below the radar. We're working on things, especially if we don't have the training or skills to do what you just talked about. We're working on the net new areas that might not have a business sponsor yet, because nobody's even identified the problem

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Brynn Shader: Hmm.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: As we're making the impact, there might have been no baseline data, because nobody was paying attention to that thing. And so I think you know. And the other thing that they're bringing, which you ended on is like the problem solving and the agility. It's like you. Just you give a little bit of skills, and you give a little bit of direction to catalysts. You connect them across the network, and they're freaking, unstoppable.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I would love to pivot now, because that mean we could have a whole nother conversation on the intersection of Hr. And

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Brynn Shader: Oh, yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But a lot of our customers today given the sort of continuing breakneck sort of speed of change and the intensity of disruption that's almost impossible to communicate. They're like, so what is the role of change management? How is change management changing? And what do we need to pay attention to

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Brynn Shader: Yeah, so

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Brynn Shader: change management. I think the first.st And and it's you know, I gave a talk once called What the fuck is change management, anyway, and I literally applied. You know I submitted that talk title. I I did not think they were gonna go for it. It was with Hr. Disrupt, Hr. Which is like this massive, you know, national organization. I was very surprised.

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Brynn Shader: but it showed me that people don't know what change management is. Some people.

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Brynn Shader: And that's okay. It's not like a bad thing. It's not something to be ashamed of. It's an opportunity to learn and to create some new understandings of how people respond to change.

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Brynn Shader: How do you manage fear and anxiety? And how do you bring people along in a journey so that you are maintaining productivity during the disruption as much as possible. And you're retaining your top talent.

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Brynn Shader: and you're retaining your catalyst. And so I think that

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Brynn Shader: you know the 1st thing is differentiating the difference between project management and change management. Everyone knows what project management is right. We know this triangle, the scope, the timeline, the budget great. These are all finite. These are tangible things. Of course we know what project management is.

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Brynn Shader: but change management is the people side of that, and it is ambiguous, and it is messy because people are emotional, and it's not super easy to bucket them or put them on an excel spreadsheet. But your project

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Brynn Shader: could have the most defined scope, the most incredible timeline, a budget that will never end. But if you don't enable the people side of whatever that project is going to disrupt

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Brynn Shader: when it is executed, you will not realize the business value that is being invested in that project. There's also like, so that's more of like the the risk, like the like if you don't, you know, if you don't focus on change management, if you don't focus on bringing people along communications ensuring that they are skilled up before the change goes live.

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Brynn Shader: You're also missing out on opportunity. You're missing out on an opportunity to elevate your culture, because when people feel like they are part of the change, when I sit down, and I, you know, show my my clients what a stakeholder interview looks like

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Brynn Shader: they see that it's not just about gathering data from these stakeholders. That is a byproduct. That is the benefit we need to understand what they need and what they care about.

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Brynn Shader: but it is bringing them into the conversation. It is that connection. It is that I don't like the term buy-in, because it feels manipulative. It is that co-creation

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Brynn Shader: that creates an army of people

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Brynn Shader: who now feel invested in. They now feel like change isn't happening to them, that they are part of it. Now I know that this can't like you can't have this elaborate change management effort with these months of stakeholder interviews and change impact analysis for every change, because, like the business impact doesn't warrant that.

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Brynn Shader: But that's where, being agile and being able to right size, those conversations and right size, those streams of work

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Brynn Shader: will enable whatever you're trying to accomplish. And so the second thing is, is building courage amongst

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Brynn Shader: employee, amongst leaders and employees. When you are doing change right. And you are addressing the people side and you are soliciting their feedback. And you are understanding this specific impact. This change is going to have on the process, like, you know, a new tool. How is that actually going to change the way they do their jobs?

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Brynn Shader: A lot most of the time a lot.

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Brynn Shader: But when you, when you approach this correctly and the right amount of time is invested before the on button is switched on. You are building courage amongst your population, because now they feel they can connect with some confidence and their entire sense of identity at work, and their sense of stability and predictability has started to be mended a bit. Then you create unbelievably powerful organization

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I love that last point so much. Their sense of predictability is mended. I'd love for you to see a little bit more about that. But let me share my thoughts about that which is.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: there's so much change coming at everyone all the time, even for catalyst change. Fatigue is real, and if we're doing it right now, we're not going to have a 3, 5, 10 year strategy. We're going to have an adaptive strategy where we're sensing and we're informing it, which means, almost by definition, people that were hooking their sense of stability onto

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: what historically have been reasonable places to hang your sense of stability which is like, Hey, here's how I'm contributing to the 3 year strategy. I know what I need to do for the next 3 years, etc. What I heard you say is the more transparent that we can be about this constant change worlds, that the organization is going to be living in, the more that we can involve people in the co-creation, and so that they can see where their role is tying into what is now

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: the change management strategy in a way right as opposed to static strategy. What we're saying to them is, look, it might be something like, Look, the thing that we're asking for you now is. Yes, you need to deliver this on this in the next couple of quarters, but be sensing for, or be ready for these other signals that are going to come through the noise that you're gonna we're going to invite you to to bring to us and to adapt. Is that fair

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Brynn Shader: Yeah, absolutely. I think. You know, this, this idea of predict, this, this, this a sense of predictability

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Brynn Shader: that's really hard right to maintain, and I think that that the more that leaders can communicate and be transparent, as you said, to the instability that exists in the very nature of the way we have to run our businesses today that creates a sense of stability unto itself. Right? Like I can rely. You're telling me you're creating. You're painting a picture that I can now see myself

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's right. That's right.

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Brynn Shader: And so it's like setting expectations that is not constantly causing an amygdala hijack in our employees that allows them to somehow, like, you know, like a cat, kind of like creating their own little like comfortable bed out of like a blanket. They're they're finding their own little, their spot in in the chaos

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I love that analogy so much.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: One more question on this one, and then we'll pivot to our last question. You also hit on a super important point, which is

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: for all of the changes. We're not going to have these big change management processes or these efforts, or the stakeholder interviews or stuff like that. I'm wondering if you have guidance for people about when they know to apply that methodology or when they're just like we're going to just have to adapt kind of in the seams

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Brynn Shader: Oh, yeah, love that question. I think

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Brynn Shader: that always asking that question when when when you have like a gut sense that

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Brynn Shader: something is changing and people are going to be fill in the blank about it. It doesn't matter what the emotion is. Happy, sad, scared.

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Brynn Shader: If you have this gut reaction

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Brynn Shader: that requires a little bit of time to assess what that what that impact might be, and to T-shirt size the change. Right is it? Are you changing the expense policy which, like my current client, is doing.

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Brynn Shader: okay, so put yourself in the shoe, and this also requires empathy on behalf of right, the leaders and the people who are like talking about the change. You have to put yourself in the shoes of people in different parts of the business to say, Okay.

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Brynn Shader: if I am. And this is where I use personas and journey mapping when it is a large or extra large impact. Is you really then need to understand the individual, unique, felt experience of these different groups of people. But I think you know, doing an assessment. And this is something that I tell all of my clients, and oftentimes I'm brought into like what I call rescue and recovery, because they didn't do this.

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Brynn Shader: That's okay. We all learn in our own ways, like they learn about change management from pain. I think a lot of us learn how to do things differently when we feel pain. I think that's part of the human experience. But if we can get ahead of it and do some of this assessment and have some of these initial conversations. For example, like talk to someone in a part of the business, who you think this new expense policy is going to completely like, throw them off

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Brynn Shader: have an initial conversation. These don't have to be like formal. I'm having a stakeholder interview with you. It's just like, have a conversation. Find out what their. You know, their current process is what it's suggest. Some of the changes that might be coming and hear what their reaction is. And you can use that as data, this data collection, part of change management is so often skipped.

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Brynn Shader: but it is so critical to

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Brynn Shader: to everything and to maximize the value of whatever you're trying to accomplish. And so I would say, initial conversations, informal conversations. Get a pulse, get a temperature right, take a temperature, and think about what communications are going to be required to bring them along

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Brynn Shader: and ensure that you've got 2 way communications right? Because it can't. It can't just be one way and then the other piece is, the other 2 pieces are who are the key leaders who are going to own this and be the face of it? And are you creating safe spaces for them to be able to experience the change themselves? And then the last piece is, what are the learning like? What do people need to learn?

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Brynn Shader: And addressing that

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing. And you basically, I just have to say articulated both the class and our catalyst programs like those are the things that we help catalysts understand. And so we're like, it's not a change. What we teach is not like an official change management process. It's the skills to execute on all of those things that we talk about like having a listening tour first, st like what is just generally the appetite for change

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Brynn Shader: Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And then you're like in that, you've identified the resistors, the endorsers, the key stakeholders. And then you're like, Okay, let's co-create with the people who are going to help us get the flywheel going. Yeah.

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Brynn Shader: Yep.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And then on the final side, it's like, okay, but we still have to bring the rest of the org. So we get a feedback like, are there any other major red flags?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Otherwise we're going ahead right? So I love that so much. All right. Fun

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Brynn Shader: Well, and this is also why I don't call it change management.

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Brynn Shader: Oh, can you hear me?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. Go, ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

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Brynn Shader: I don't like to call it change management, because I don't think you can actually manage change. I call it change craft because you're crafting experiences. And you know exactly what you guys are doing. And I think that that's super smart, that you're not calling it change management, because that can feel really overwhelming and scary. But essentially what you're doing are those things which are not rocket science. It's just takes a little bit of, you know, upskilling and and experimenting

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And a little bit of slowing down which can be really really hard for us as catalysts. I have to bring my stakeholders along again, I have to communicate for the 10th times that they

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Brynn Shader: Yes, yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: That's awful

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Brynn Shader: Yes, people need to hear things 10 times, and they need to feel important

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Totally.

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Brynn Shader: And when you're telling them something 10 times, they feel

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Brynn Shader: not always, but that, you know they feel like they matter

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah, obviously, Bryn, I could talk to you for hours, but I'm going to ask the last question. So who is your favorite inspirational catalyst, past or present, and why?

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Brynn Shader: So I thought really hard about this. I saw this question earlier, like and I thought a lot about it.

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Brynn Shader: And it really it just is Taylor Swift, like I can't help it.

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Brynn Shader: It's just Taylor Swift.

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Brynn Shader: I never liked her music like I don't even really love her music that much. Honestly, I think it's fun. I think it's cool.

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Brynn Shader: It's snappy, but that woman inspires me so much over and over and over again. She is such a catalyst. It's unbelievable. She is constantly looking at problems in the industry.

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Brynn Shader: and she is standing up for her beliefs, and she is experimenting, always experimenting. I mean. I can go on and on about the things that she has done to elevate women in the industry, her fight with Spotify like fighting against the grain, her republishing, her music like to be like. No, you can't own me, I mean she is.

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Brynn Shader: I think the thing that stands out to me is her intelligence, her intellect.

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Brynn Shader: I think that she, you know, is extremely smart, and uses that to her advantage, but in a way that

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Brynn Shader: I think is disruptive, but also doesn't make her look like a bully, or right like she. She has found this balance of being a catalyst and

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Brynn Shader: pissing off some people along the way, but eventually they come around because they know that she's for the greater good. I don't know how I, you know, and some people are going to laugh at that, but I truly believe that her purpose is above and beyond just putting out music that people enjoy. She is

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Brynn Shader: shifting the very like the very.

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Brynn Shader: very business of music and women's role in it.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: mic drop. Amen. No one has said her yet, and I'm stoked that you brought her into this conversation. So thank you, Bryn.

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Brynn Shader: Yep.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thanks for joining us and to our listeners. Thanks so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in our world. Be sure to check out the book that Bryn was mentioning. Move fast, break, shit, burnout, or go to our website at catalystconstellations.com. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, please take 10 seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcast and of course, if you have other catalysts in your life, hit the share button and send a link their way thanks again.