Amnah Ajmal, Executive Vice President of Market Development for Mastercard EEMEA: Breaking Barriers for Transformative Leadership

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hi! I'm Shannon, Lucas.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And I'm Tracy Lovejoy. We're the co-ceos of catalyst constellations which is dedicated to empowering catalyst to create bold, powerful change in the world.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: This is our podcast move, fast, break ship burnout, where we speak with catalyst executives about ways to successfully lead transformation in large organizations. And today I'm thrilled to have Amna Ajmal with us. Amna is the executive vice President of Market Development at Mastercard Emea. In this role she leads the P. And L. Across multiple business verticals, including merchants, telcos, governments, Fintech, digital players across 80 markets.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: In addition, she also heads the strategy pricing analytics and M. And A for the region. Prior to this she led the role in North America product and innovation organization based out of the Us. Creating sustainable competitive differentiation for mastercard and its customers by delivering digitally integrated customer experiences across consumer and commercial products. And I left that in because I think a lot of our listeners will be super interested in that.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Prior to joining Mastercard she was CEO for the Standard Chartered Consumer Bank in Malaysia. She was honored to be listed in the Forbes, Middle East, 100 most powerful businesswomen in 2024 Arabian business fifties, inspiring women leaders in 2024, and too many other accolades to list. She's passionate about social empowerment for women, and gender equity. Welcome, Anna.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Thank you so much, and thanks a lot for the kind introduction. Shannon and Tracy, happy to be here.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: We're thrilled to have you. Well, let's just jump right in. So I read the sort of clinical version of your bio. But we would love to hear about your catalytic journey if you can sort of share your journey, maybe highlighting some things that you're proud of, that also help us see your catalytic nature.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Sure. So I think it began probably when I was 18 years, maybe 6, between 16 and 18 years of age. That was born in Pakistan. No one in my family worked. And I think I was kind of okay with it. The only

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AMNAH AJMAL: probably issue was that I was treated very differently. Compared to my brother, so I wanted to study in the Us. Or Uk. I got the scholarship, and I got into a good school. He did not, so we had a 1 year age gap. So my father was like, you should hope that he gets in, and I was really focusing on teaching him so that he gets since I could go. He didn't get inside, also couldn't go. But I was kind of okay with it. But then my parents divorce happened, and it was not an amicable one, and dragged on for pretty long.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I think that probably was from where my journey of a catalyst started. Because

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AMNAH AJMAL: so, my mom, she was 16 when she got married. She was 17 when she had her 1st kid

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AMNAH AJMAL: in when she had me, and then twins that she didn't want to

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AMNAH AJMAL: finish her education, her entire social circle, her lifestyle.

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AMNAH AJMAL: her financial well-being. Everything was because of my dad.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and when the divorce happened

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AMNAH AJMAL: I realized that she literally had no identity, and she had. She was no one. She was devastating.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I was all. I was always raised in a way that you know a man is supposed to take care of you and have your father, your brother, your husband.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Later on. Your son. Family is a lot of money. You don't need to work, you work for money, so if you have money, why would you work?

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AMNAH AJMAL: I think all those concepts were like

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AMNAH AJMAL: I was challenging them because I didn't. I didn't see any of them holding true. When my mother was going through this journey.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amna your your connection broke up a lot we couldn't hear you. Can you say that again?

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AMNAH AJMAL: From where should I start? Yes, I think that was.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: When none of them were true, was was a great place. If you pick.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Sure. So I was, I think, because none of them were true. I decided that I would create my own life.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and that would include financial independence that would include

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AMNAH AJMAL: Making myself known for my own intellectual identity and not necessarily someone's wife or someone's daughter.

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AMNAH AJMAL: It meant also exploring the world traveling by myself, and not because my husband is taking me for a vacation.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So I think all of that came together. When I decided to have a career and financial independence, and I wanted to do a master's.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Now, of course, the whole battle with the family members trying to actually have a life which no other woman had had before.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And then, long story cut short, I've lived in 11 different countries across the Us. Asia, Europe, Middle East.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Yeah, I did buy my 1st apartment myself in London. Canary Borough. I wanted to have water views when I was 19. That's what I dreamt, and actually it sounds cliche. But yes, I did buy the one with water views, and I paid it off by myself.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I did achieve financial independence. I

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AMNAH AJMAL: always wanted to marry if I find the person that I love as opposed to my parents choosing someone, and I have to get married because everybody gets married at the age of 20, in my family.

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AMNAH AJMAL: latest or 22,

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I did get married when I fell in love, and I think my biggest achievement is that

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AMNAH AJMAL: My daughter will have all the choices that I did not have.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I know you listed corporate achievements, but

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AMNAH AJMAL: for me. Those really don't matter. I was able to

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AMNAH AJMAL: bring

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AMNAH AJMAL: a girl into this world who will have a completely different life, and will have no struggles that I had. She will have all the choices.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and her life is really based on all she can do as opposed to a list of what she can't do.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I have a follow up question. We haven't done sort of this longitudinal research, but it's sort of like our catalyst nature versus nurture. And what I'm curious about in your story, and thank you for sharing that it does give profound insight in the obstacles that you had to overcome to achieve your vision. Where did you get the? Because, like we talk about? If you don't see someone doing it

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: right? If you don't have models, then it's hard to even imagine what that other future could look like. Where do you think your ability, I mean, I understand you saw your mom. But was there someone that modeled this for you or you were just reacting to like, that's not going to happen to me.

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AMNAH AJMAL: The latter, and I think a lot because I had a sister who turned, and we were raised exactly the same way, and she turned out to be completely different. She did get married at the age of 22. You know, she has kids. She's happy. She never could understand. Like, what am I talking about? She's like, and you have all the money. So she's like people work for money. So what exactly is your problem? I don't understand like, why do you want to work right?

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I think it's very hard for me, like I'm in my mid forties to go back to like 20 years back, and say, like, what was the driving force? So I tried to connect dots, and I think

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AMNAH AJMAL: the fear that

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AMNAH AJMAL: I would be trapped in that kind of a life.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and maybe it could also be that I was closer to my mother, and I was always more. I always had a stronger sense of observing other people and a high sense of empathy. So

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AMNAH AJMAL: for me, when she always used to say sentences like, you know, I give my life

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AMNAH AJMAL: for this

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AMNAH AJMAL: like I didn't complete my education. I didn't do anything. My whole life was this.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I was, and I used to read a lot of books, and I was like, how is it possible that

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AMNAH AJMAL: your entire life

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AMNAH AJMAL: can just blow away in one second because it was so dependent on one person?

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AMNAH AJMAL: And then I started like just absorbing around that, you know. Yes, like all the men in the family, are the ones who call the shops all the time.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I remember I was having a conversation with my grandfather when I decided to leave my house. And I was like, I think I'm I'm gonna really regret it, because I'll be burning so many family bridges. My mom's dad.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And he said to me, Just imagine yourself 30 years from now.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So I was 18 at that time, and think that you will be living the life of your mom. Does that make you happy? And I was so petrified that I would end up like her.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So I was like, No, wait. And I think

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AMNAH AJMAL: maybe that fear drove me that. Okay, this could be me also. You know I could be in this situation.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hmm.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And that was just a powerful force that

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AMNAH AJMAL: made me have that kind of courage and perseverance. Also, I think the kind of things probably you do in your twenties. You look back and you're like, I don't know. How did I do that, you know, like, how did I think that I have $18 in my pocket. I leave the house.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I'll get a job. I won't be fired if I'm fired. What would I do? Who would I go back to, you know, like

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AMNAH AJMAL: I think courage probably is amplified early on in your life. Then, later.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yeah. Yeah. And like the literally the bottom of the Maslow hierarchy, fear of like, you're not being able to even take care of yourself on that kind of.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Because.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: The light layer. Yes.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I'd love to push here a little bit. Shannon mentioned that we have this question mark for catalysts around nature versus nurture

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): is a catalyst born

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): is the catalyst made. And so so far in your story, we're we're making the argument, for it's made.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): You

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): drove into a career in finance. You could have become financially independent, doing any kind of role really right.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And yet when I get to peek through your Linkedin, or look what you're written about right. It's innovation, it's strategy, it's redevelopment, it's redesigning. It's restructuring.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I see a peppered history of transformation.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And so I wonder, like, what is it that led you to that as opposed to you could have been the head of.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): you know, Banks, without that drive, and so that.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Yes.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): I love the is. Does that come from that kind of moment in time as well? Or is that more who you were from birth? And do we know.

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AMNAH AJMAL: The tricky thing. It's it's a very good question. I I'm always attracted to

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AMNAH AJMAL: transformational roles. Either it's impact on people or the business. I mean if someone

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AMNAH AJMAL: in a way, I say that I'm attracted to difficult situations, you know.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It's not.

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AMNAH AJMAL: One gives me like a nice job

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AMNAH AJMAL: business as usual. Probably

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AMNAH AJMAL: I would say it's not for me.

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AMNAH AJMAL: It could be that

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AMNAH AJMAL: that once I realized that oh, my God! I could change my entire life like I designed and thought about this life, and I'm living it

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AMNAH AJMAL: so

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AMNAH AJMAL: I think that perseverance and courage is extremely critical. When you're doing transformational roles because you have to take bold decisions, you have to take a path that's less traveled. You have to have that sense of urgency. You need to stick to what you decided right?

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AMNAH AJMAL: You need to see it through.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And there are many obstacles in corporate large corporates that you have to go through to see your vision. You know it's not easy to execute, so I think that high level of courage and perseverance, which in a way proved that if I could change my life

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AMNAH AJMAL: and those discussions, and that battle was so much bigger.

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AMNAH AJMAL: what is transforming your business.

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AMNAH AJMAL: you know

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AMNAH AJMAL: you could do that. So I think that kind of

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AMNAH AJMAL: crept its way through all my business journeys, and I was like people were like, why would you leave Ue for Egypt?

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AMNAH AJMAL: Why would you leave London for Poland? Why would you leave Singapore for Malaysia? Why would you leave the Us and come back to Dubai. So for me these were like all difficult situations where a change leader was required, a massive transformation was required, and I was attracted to it. I had the conviction

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AMNAH AJMAL: that yes, I can do it.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and maybe I don't know. I'm saying that maybe that conviction stems from the fact that I've done it personally in my life. So how hard can a business one be? Because, at least in a business you're not emotionally vested. You don't have your personal relationships at stake. Right?

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I hear in your story, too, because you were so quick to say in your in your opening story about how you created the life where your daughter wasn't going to have that. But it's like your aperture, for that actually has opened much wider. And like as you're looking at all of the financial inclusion. And this is a lot of the things that you.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: It's like, I'm not just bringing one person along on this journey. I don't want others to have similar lived experiences. So I'm going to use my superpowers to bring them along.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Yes, because initially 7 years back, when my daughter was born for me, it was like, Oh, my God! This is my purpose, right like. Yes, I have to give her the slide.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And then when I moved into this role, and especially, I started going deeper into Middle East and Africa, and I saw I started working with the Telcos, and I saw the Smes, and then I saw I always knew women are disadvantaged than men right? And I was always advancing women's career

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AMNAH AJMAL: more because I believe they needed more of confidence.

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AMNAH AJMAL: more of risk taking.

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AMNAH AJMAL: But then I also realized that not only women are disadvantaged in the corporate world. But there's this whole world of women out there, and my problems are nothing compared to those women. Because imagine someone.

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AMNAH AJMAL: a farmer in Kenya like working all day, getting the daily salary and going back home in that daily wage, is supposed to put food on the table for her kids right? It can be stolen.

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AMNAH AJMAL: The husband can take it away. Blow it up with gambling. Anything can happen right?

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AMNAH AJMAL: So I think that really moved me that this, my purpose and mission can be so much amplified and can be so much bigger.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And I can do that, or I can play a tiny role in delivering that.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): What's your favorite thing that you've done

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): as you

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): talk about your identity expanding in that way?

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AMNAH AJMAL: Maybe my answer is gonna be a bit boring. But I really think

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AMNAH AJMAL: someone once told me that you never know what love is till you become a parent.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I think motherhood is the biggest blessing that I have. I never

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AMNAH AJMAL: realized that

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AMNAH AJMAL: for a woman it's just such an incredible experience, you become a different person, you would never be the same person again.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and you think differently.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Your sense of responsibility is different. It's just such a massive change

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AMNAH AJMAL: that I think it's way to talked about. I also see leadership and parenting have so much in common. I learned so much from my personal life that I take to work.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and it's a little bit of like kept in the background. People are like, no, keep your like. Don't show your vulnerability at work, else, you know, people may not have to. People may have different kind of judgments, but for me they're so intertwined. But I I just think that

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AMNAH AJMAL: that's the biggest blessing. That's the biggest achievement that has changed me forever. I'll never be the same person again.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I mean, none of the jobs come close to it, you know.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And sorry. I just have to say when Lennon introduced us, and I looked at your profile, you had this amazing post, and you posted another one today, and just on behalf of all of us. Thank you for normalizing it right? Because it's like you write this big list about what your day looks like to like. It's not easy. It's really not easy. It's rich, and it's full, and there's lots of great things in it. But just you normalizing. The conversation, I think, is so powerful.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Thank you. Yeah. I also feel that at times people feel that it's picture perfect. So if I go in a suit and I'm in meetings, and I'm at the stage. And actually the funniest incident was when I got this recognition of Fintech, leader of the year. I got an award, and there was a media person who said, Can we interview you? And I looked at my Whatsapp. It was like 8 30 Pm. And my housekeeper messaged me. There's no actamel and bananas for tomorrow. Could you buy it on your way back?

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AMNAH AJMAL: So for me, it was like, Wow, here, look what's happening, and one of my colleagues was standing next to me, and he's like, Why are you laughing? I'm like, look what message I have. What do I have to do after this, you know. So people feel that you know

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AMNAH AJMAL: that this is normal, that you're like they would ask me all your ducks in a row, or it's it's so perfect it's not. My ducks are not in a row, you know. I break down on weekends

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AMNAH AJMAL: at times I feel I'm a terrible parent. Why am I dragging a kid on the floor? You know? Why did I scream at my own child? You know at times you're multitasking, and you feel you did not do the right justice to this part or this part.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So, but just normalizing that it's okay that you can't be perfect at everything, and the fact that you just went through your day and you survived is so great, you know we never do that. I wish I would treat myself, or retreat ourselves the way we treat our children.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Oh, such a good point! I don't know if I ever told you, Shannon. I keep a URL in case I ever blog, because I imagined I would when I had kids. It's a full, messy life.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I did not know that about you, Tracy, but that's amazing. Yeah.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): That's what. And that's what I hear you describing. Right? There's nothing. I tell my kids all the time that my favorite job ever is being a parent.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): and it is a job. Make no mistake.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Yes.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): But it is my very favorite.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): So thank you for that.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Tell us a little bit insight into your life as an executive. What are some of the biggest challenges that you have faced as a catalyst executive. So as someone who's drawn to transformation. And these interesting challenges time after time, that bring you from New Place to new place?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Are there any themes in the challenges that you've seen? Or are they really unique?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): What's it been like.

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AMNAH AJMAL: They they could be certain themes. One of it is, of course, there are times when it's really lonely.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and you feel like am I the only one pushing this

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AMNAH AJMAL: entire world like maybe I should give up

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I think it's it's hard for you to surround yourself all the time in every situation with other similar catalysts who actually would inspire you, or everyone needs someone to talk to in their low moment. Right?

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AMNAH AJMAL: And that loneliness can very easily

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AMNAH AJMAL: let you give up on the mission that you're on

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AMNAH AJMAL: right. So I think that has been a common, consistent theme.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Second, I would say, is that

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AMNAH AJMAL: at times finding allies or finding even team members, whether junior or senior, who would have the same passion like they're not doing it because it's a job, but they have the same passion, they have the same. They believe in that vision, and they're vested in it.

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AMNAH AJMAL: That's absolutely important, because if you don't have that.

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AMNAH AJMAL: it's extremely hard, because anybody can have a vision. But I always say, like vision and strategy is on paper. Execution is what happens in reality. That's when actually, you make a difference. Right?

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yes.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So, having those kind of that kind of network of people who would, who would actually, day in, day out, execute that vision. Senior or junior. I think that for me is extremely extremely important.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and the last one is the trade-off between short term and long term.

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AMNAH AJMAL: It is so hard that many times people would just see the short term.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and they'll be like, Yeah, this is not worth it.

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AMNAH AJMAL: you know, because it may not happen in their lifetime. They may not be there to see the reward of it.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I think convincing that the long term is just gonna pay off. So much

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AMNAH AJMAL: for the organization or for the communities or for the shareholders. I think that trade off and bringing everyone on the same page is also another consistent theme of transformation. And, by the way, not every transformation even pays off.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): How do you help people see that vision so that they're bought into the execution? How do you help them? Think about the trade-offs in short term and long term you've been wildly successful in the transformations you've done. So. What's your secret here?

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AMNAH AJMAL: And I've also failed a lot of times. But

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AMNAH AJMAL: I would say couple of things, I think. 1st of all, you have to

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AMNAH AJMAL: understand

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AMNAH AJMAL: that you have to give before you can take. So let's say I land up in Poland in a country I'm the only expat

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AMNAH AJMAL: I'm in my twenties. My direct reports are in their forties, I mean. Why did she get the job? She's not from this country. She doesn't speak the language. She doesn't know the regulator. She doesn't know the market.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And we're gonna transform this business into a customer centric digital business. We're talking about 2,008

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AMNAH AJMAL: at that time digital transformation wasn't even a used word.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So how does she get this job?

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AMNAH AJMAL: I could go in and say, Okay, I have this job.

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AMNAH AJMAL: You know I expect people to do

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AMNAH AJMAL: what they have to do

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AMNAH AJMAL: completely wrong approach. Or I focus on establishing connections with people that are person to person. I understand where they're coming from. I understand their sense of achievement. What is it associated with what motivates them? What demotivates them?

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AMNAH AJMAL: Well, you can't do it when you're when you're responsible for 300 people. But you could still go 3 layers down. You could do it across cross functions

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AMNAH AJMAL: that helps, you understand. And that's why all transformations are usually slow in the beginning. And once you have that allies you can actually speed up to make sure you don't miss out on the market and the consumers.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So I think that for me is very important. So they see when I learn and hear from them. Only then I jointly create that vision. So they see that. What do they get from Amna? What does she bring on the table like? Why is she there? Right? You have to justify that you can't just come in and say that because you have the job, you have this vision, and because you have this vision, you believe everybody should line up and do that? It doesn't happen like that.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Taking that time to build those connections.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Not everybody would be jumping with you on the bus. And that's perfectly fine. You just need to understand. What is the motivation of people? What what is that will make them look good? What is that will make them achieve

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AMNAH AJMAL: things that they are dreaming of? How can they become a part of it? And do they see that big picture, that together? That's what we are creating.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Some may just do it because they love the vision, they want to be part of it. Some may do it because

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AMNAH AJMAL: they feel it's their job.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Some actually may want to do it, but would not have the skill set to do it. But that's where actually you need to upskill them. But you need to understand this grouping of people. Otherwise, I mean, it's not like you go and write a vision on a whiteboard. And there are people because you're their boss. They're gonna be up excited. Let's do it!

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): It would be nice, though.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I'm not. I'm I'm curious, you know. So we have a tool called the network map in our class. Tracy and I were just like this would be a great clip for that class. But one of the things that I hear you talking about is like the breadth of people that you have to activate.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: But you're just one person. And so I'm wondering if you have advice for how to sense the people who are the most likely to lean in as fast as possible to a probably blurrier version of the vision.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And you know the people who will lean in fast because they have a positive relationship with change.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So

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AMNAH AJMAL: I think, I don't know whether it's intuition. I have been wrong that I can say 80% of the time I'm right, and maybe 20 to 30%. Let's say I'm wrong.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I think when you have those one on one connections with people, you need to understand their source of motivation, right? And all of us are motivated by different things.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So I tried to put

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AMNAH AJMAL: people who are like high achievers and

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AMNAH AJMAL: are very comfortable with ambiguous, uncertain situations

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AMNAH AJMAL: into a category that they can immediately actually be the next layer of leaders who would actually bring in more people onto this journey.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I have to make sure that I work very closely with them. I have to make sure that they are inspired by the vision. They believe in it, and then they go ahead and do the like. Let's say the next 20 or 50 people for you. I think it's important to identify this group of people, because most transformations are in uncertain situations.

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AMNAH AJMAL: They require you to deal with ambiguity, they require courage.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I try to get to know people's personal stories more than their professional achievements, so they require you to have a certain level of agility. Curiosity

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AMNAH AJMAL: one of my

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AMNAH AJMAL: direct reports once told me when she was leaving, and I was recruiting her backfill. I'm like, what's the criteria that you would tell me? She's like look for nerves of steel.

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AMNAH AJMAL: you know.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: And now.

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AMNAH AJMAL: That sounded nerves of steel.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Chairs of steel. Yes.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Yes.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Yes.

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AMNAH AJMAL: You know, and she had it. I did not realize it till she said it, but she had it. So. When you look for catalyst and transformational change leaders. That's the kind of personality you need less about the technical skill set. So you have to identify those people.

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AMNAH AJMAL: people who are on the like a border or a fence.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I think they are the ones you would see that it's lack of confidence

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AMNAH AJMAL: could be due to the skill set like. I don't feel that technically, I'm equipped to do that.

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AMNAH AJMAL: or could be because of the buying and the vision. And you have to segregate this group.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I think this is the hardest one to do. It requires more conversations, and you having deeper understanding whether it's through your direct reports or through a network of people to really segregate this group. I think the technical skill set is the easiest to solve.

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AMNAH AJMAL: because you have to show them a path. How can they do it again? Not an expert in the Telco industry. You're asking me to become a Telco account manager, so you have to draw parallels to what they have done. You have to probably upgrade their skill. Set a bit. You have to show them a path how they can get there

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AMNAH AJMAL: celebrate their success. Small success stories, and they are in it.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I think the ones who don't believe in your vision. And they're like on the fence. Maybe a big thing could not be. The risk is not worth it. I think those are the ones that you need to probably

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AMNAH AJMAL: make them part of groups who are completely bought into your vision.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And they're continuously working in that group and environment which is so positive.

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AMNAH AJMAL: which is so optimistic

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AMNAH AJMAL: because any change requires you to have a certain level of optimism.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Because how can you paint a positive picture of the future? If you yourself are a pessimist, you can't. So I think, putting them in that optimistic, positive environment

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AMNAH AJMAL: helps them see through that vision as opposed to just hearing it from you. They need to see it at their level among their peers. Yes, it's possible, and you'll be able to sway them. And then there's a group that you know it.

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AMNAH AJMAL: It's neither a skill set gap nor a vision buying. They just would never be on your bus. You have to make sure you identify them.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and you have to make sure either they will be just a safe pair of hands who would do something for you to think like move the bit, or they would not be with you on this journey.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Amazing the level of detail. I hope that's super helpful for the for the listeners.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: like many catalysts. Well, let me say this, a lot of catalysts will move from job to job, to company, to company at a faster clip than others, because if we go in and we fix the problems. Then we're bored. And so we move on to the next thing, and you've had a pretty fast acceleration and journey, and been in a couple of different companies. So sort of I just wanted to double click on when you're new to an organization.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: How do you do that? Sensing as quickly as possible, because it is so fundamental to what you're talking about in terms of your success. And there's landmines. And there's also the people who are in that last category that you described, who will see the C-suite talking about all the right words, so the right words might even come out of their mouth, even if they don't have.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: and they're not bought into the vision. So I'm just wondering if you have any tactical advice for people in a new role in a new company to find that standard distribution curve that you just identified.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So

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AMNAH AJMAL: I think,

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AMNAH AJMAL: you are right, I mean, in fact, this was the case with me, like I would be just picked by Citibank. Okay, now you're in London. Now you go to Poland. Now you're in Poland. Now you go to Hungary. Right? It's the same was with Sanitary in Singapore. Now you go to Malaysia. So I think change agents are very quickly picked up. And okay, here's another big thing. Solve that. Okay, here's another big

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AMNAH AJMAL: I would say. One is

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AMNAH AJMAL: that you and I. I give this advice to a lot of people that you have to change your working environment, whether it's the geography or the function.

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AMNAH AJMAL: because that

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AMNAH AJMAL: there is no, there's nothing else that I feel could substitute that intuition or that sense of observation, or that empathy that I developed.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Because when you're in an environment which is completely unknown to you.

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AMNAH AJMAL: if you're working in international corporate, I would say, change geography, go to a country where you don't know the language, where you don't know the street signs, where you can't have a conversation and work. In that environment people look different than how you look like. They talk in a different language. They behave differently. You would learn so much more. You will develop a much stronger sense of empathy right?

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AMNAH AJMAL: And you can do that early on in your career. It's harder to do it later in your career. Also, you're less flexible and adaptable in the later part of your career, so the sooner you do it you will develop a strong sense of empathy, a good sense of observation.

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AMNAH AJMAL: You will be able to challenge the status quo, because you're just building this muscle where you're able to identify people because, you see and observe so many different people and culture, and how they behave and they fit, and they talk.

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AMNAH AJMAL: That's 1 thing.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Second, I would say, look for leaders who have developed leaders. Right. So for me.

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AMNAH AJMAL: the fact that you're a great leader because you transformed a business. No.

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AMNAH AJMAL: you're a great leader because you turned around this P. And L. No, you're a great leader because you generated these 10 leaders. Wow, yes, you are a great leader, right? And it's not hard to spot people. So if you spot people who have built great leaders

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AMNAH AJMAL: that came out of their development out of the growth that they invested, then those are definitely your catalyst that your transformational leaders, that empowering another generation, they're generating a set of leaders, you know, who are going on doing bigger and better things. You need to make sure. Then you're

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AMNAH AJMAL: part of that group.

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AMNAH AJMAL: or you're you're connected to those leaders, whether they're sponsors, whether they are mentors, whether you're part of that organization.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and the last thing I would say is that

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I don't have an answer as to how how you have it, or you don't have it.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Go outside your job. Scope

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AMNAH AJMAL: to the curiosity part of it. I never did a job.

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AMNAH AJMAL: In fact, I've never looked at my job description

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AMNAH AJMAL: like I never ever looked at it. I and we also been fortunate that nobody has pointed to me that oh, actually, are you looking at this like, for example.

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AMNAH AJMAL: my passion for women. Sme is not part of this job right? Why do I do it? Because I just feel so passionate and good about it right?

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AMNAH AJMAL: But in the early on in my career I was like in operations.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I would go and sit with a contact center employee just to understand how the contact center works. So I think building that content is critical. How would you assess if people are belonging to different camps

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AMNAH AJMAL: when you cannot connect with them? Because you don't understand what they do.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Yeah.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I just want to thank you.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Provide without the content. You need to have the content.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and that you can build, and you go beyond your job scope to learn a lot more.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: I just want to thank you for making that so concrete, because I've asked that question to so many, so many people honestly. And you were like boom. Here's 3 concrete things that you can do to develop that skill set. Thank you.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Thanks.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And the ethnographer anthropologist to me loves you, telling everybody, go drop into an unknown place where you don't understand the rituals or the language, and observe.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Right.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): No better way to develop. Like we. We talk about intuition as if it's something that people are born with or not, or it's some like feminine witchy thing, and what you're saying.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Yes.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): No, if you get really good at observing what we we take for granted.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): then your intuition can take in information much faster.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Absolutely, absolutely.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): So love it. Thank you.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Thanks.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): As we wrap up today would love to hear from you Amna.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): who is your favorite catalyst, past or present, who inspires you, and why they stand out.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Say it's not one, but I would say

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AMNAH AJMAL: 2, 3 people like I give you an example. When I was 28 years old

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I was living in London. I just bought my apartment.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I was moving that day into my new apartment.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And one of my bosses called me, and he said to me he was working on his desk. He's like, Come and see me. I go and see him.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and he's like, would you like to go to Poland for this job.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I'm like

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AMNAH AJMAL: what? And he's like, would you like to interview for this job? And he's still working and looking. I'm 28 year old, and I know that job requires 20 years of experience, and I just have 4 years of experience. I'm like, why would anybody give me that job?

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AMNAH AJMAL: So he's like, Okay, fine. Think about it and tell me

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AMNAH AJMAL: I go outside. And there's another Polish person who's sitting next to me. I was working in open space, and I told this Polish person he's like, no, he can't be talking about that job. That job is way senior, you got it wrong. So I go in again. I'm like, which job were you referring to? Is it this job? He's like, yeah, this job

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AMNAH AJMAL: continue. I come out and I told this guy I'm like, no, he's talking about this job, and he looks at me. He's like everybody's foolish in that management team.

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AMNAH AJMAL: They aren't ever gonna hire you. Even if they hire you, they're gonna fire you right? I go back in

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AMNAH AJMAL: because this guy next to me, with all due respect to him, has had a typical traditional career. Right? You take jobs 4 years, 4 years. That's how you grow. Right.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So I go back in and tell my boss I'm like.

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AMNAH AJMAL: no, I won't take the job, because, 1st of all, they won't hire me, and even if they hire me they would fire me

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AMNAH AJMAL: and my boss. He looked at me, and he was like.

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AMNAH AJMAL: How old are you? And this is such a wrong question in American company, and I was like 28, and he's like, so what if they fire you? Someone will rehire you.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and he's like, think about it and let me know tomorrow.

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AMNAH AJMAL: And then I was like, Oh, my God! I dreamt up this apartment. I have it, you know. I have to move in there tomorrow.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I'm like

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AMNAH AJMAL: Polish people would interview me. You know I know nothing about Poland.

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AMNAH AJMAL: but you know I, after long story, cut short. After a year I got promoted.

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AMNAH AJMAL: What this person taught me was the importance of so what?

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AMNAH AJMAL: Whenever I'm at a crossroad of decision, I'm like, so what?

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AMNAH AJMAL: And now, when I tell people they're like, Oh, no, I want this job, but I don't think I can ask for it. And a lot of women do that. I'm like, why?

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AMNAH AJMAL: Because I think they're already thinking of that person. And I'm like, so what?

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AMNAH AJMAL: What do you have to lose?

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AMNAH AJMAL: Asking for that exact job that you want.

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AMNAH AJMAL: So I think that was such a big inspiration for me, and also the risk that this leader took on me. I was not ready for the role

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AMNAH AJMAL: it could have completely backfired.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Like I knew myself, I wasn't ready. Yeah, even after the interview, when the job offer came. I'm like, no, I'm so sure I'm gonna be fired, you know. I won't last a month right?

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AMNAH AJMAL: But risk taking in leadership. I mean, there's such an important question of so what it was such a big inspiration for me, I mean, this is I'm talking about now.

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AMNAH AJMAL: 1817 years back. It stays with me till date.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And will you share with us his name? Or is that secret.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I can share with you his name. His name was Carlos Menendez. Yes.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Do you still get to talk to Carlos today?

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AMNAH AJMAL: Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. He's a great friend. In fact, he joined Mastercard, and then we met our paths again, crossed at Mastercard. But yeah, it was like, and can you imagine, like, like, it was incredible. I was sitting on the same table as him at Mastercard, and he was like, see, I told you.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and for me it was still like.

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AMNAH AJMAL: how could have all that journey happen? But you know it happened because he believed in me. Even our current. CEO Michael.

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AMNAH AJMAL: here's another example. When he interviewed me.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I remember he asked me a very odd question, because he asked me, because he at that time was the President for mia.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and he said to me, What is your biggest achievement?

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AMNAH AJMAL: And I asked him I was single at that time, personal or professional. He's like Annie.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I said. The fact I'm sitting here interviewing for this job. He's like, what do you mean like anybody can interview? I'm like, no.

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AMNAH AJMAL: the kind of life I was supposed to live.

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AMNAH AJMAL: I was not supposed to interview for jobs, you know.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and then he was like, Tell me more so it's like the fact that someone was interested, not in my professional accomplishments.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: No.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Which were like obvious in front, but actually at the person behind.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I could go to him with any crazy idea, any craziest possible idea, and he would actually build on it

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AMNAH AJMAL: together with me

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AMNAH AJMAL: and having having that kind of a leader, and I call it something like I meet him.

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AMNAH AJMAL: and I'm I always feel uplifted.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Hmm.

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AMNAH AJMAL: You know, like I always feel happy and uplifted. I always say that it's so important for leaders, because imagine, like spending so much of time at work and

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AMNAH AJMAL: coming back home unhappy and stressed.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Right? So you need to be surrounded by leaders who are uplifting you. And he's another such example, or a person, I would say, in my career and life. I'm fortunate.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Thank you for sharing. That's amazing. And we're going to give a shout out to Carlos when we post online. And I just want to say for our listeners. Not that it was a small moment of him answering all those questions, and having you believe in yourself.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: but it's not the same life-changing thing for him that it was for you. So for all of the catalyst leaders out there, like just taking a moment to believe in the catalyst around you and nudge them to take that. So what moment? And I'll connect it back to the people who have the nerves of steel. And it might be like, yeah, I'll jump into that thing that I don't know. This has been so wonderful. Thank you for sharing your insane wisdom with us today.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Thank you so much. It was really wonderful speaking to both of you. I loved it. I enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

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Shannon Lucas - Catalyst Constellations: Awesome thanks, and to our listeners. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to learn more about how to create bold, powerful change in the world. Be sure to check out our book, move fast, break, shit, burn out, or go to our website at catalystconstellations.com.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): And I know you enjoyed this episode because I enjoyed it so much. It's like hurting my body. So please take a few seconds to rate it on itunes, spotify stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and for the other catalysts in your life, hit the share button and send a link their way.

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Tracey Lovejoy (she, her): Thanks so much.

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AMNAH AJMAL: Thank you.